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What struck me as quite interesting was Guy Verhofstadts sideremarks. >"You have to ask yourself how you will be remembered," he said. "As one of the three big

What struck me as quite interesting was Guy Verhofstadts sideremarks. >"You have to ask yourself how you will be remembered," he said. "As one of the three big internet giants together with Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, who have enriched our world and our societies, or on the other hand, the genius that created a digital monster that is destroying our democracies and societies." I imagine you have to talk like this to a guy like Zuckerberg to actually have a chance to get through to him.

sparkling 8y ago
"Destroying democracies"? Oh please. Im pretty sure the fall of the EU has little to do with Facebook. Maybe these EU officials should look at their own parlament for blame for once. Perhaps stop robbing your people by artificially devaluing your currency, stop the influx of illegal refugees into the welfare states, stop passing silly laws regulating the form of cucumbers etc. - i could go on and on.
- ageek123 8y ago
  The issue isn't the (alleged) "fall" of the EU as much as the fact that the EU (and, to a lesser extent, US Congress) wants to shut down platforms that host content that is not aligned with their political viewpoint. None of this hysteria would be happening if 55,000 fewer Americans had voted for Trump (and thus Clinton won), or about a million people who voted for Leave instead had voted for Remain. The obvious partisanship behind the Facebook frenzy is galling and should negate it on its face.
- flukus 8y ago
  I think that was a reference to the US election interference, not the EU.
  - repolfx 8y ago
    It's both. Verhofstadt is a full-blown European federalist (people who want Europe to be united under a single government and single flag). The fortunes of that dream have not been good lately, and he's looking for people to blame that aren't people like himself. I find it pathetic. Verhofstadt and people like him are one of the things that turned me off the EU and turned me into a Brexit voter. They routinely describe almost anything they don't like as "destroying democracy" or "violating democratic norms" regardless of the facts of the matter. In reality they couldn't give a rats ass about what the people want. Just compare cross-Europe opinion polls asking people what they think the top priorities of government should be (hint: immigration, terrorism) vs what the EU actually chooses to do.
    - ricardobeat 8y ago
      As an EU resident I am so, so glad immigration and terrorism are not priorities. There are more important things to worry about (such as privacy, housing, equality, welfare).
      - sparkling 8y ago
        You realize that massive refugee influx directly affects topics such as housing, equality, welfare - right?
        sgift 8y ago
        Only in the dreams of some people where all of these were not massive problems before. Sure, more people may make some very small dent on these issues, but nothing remotely relevant. Despite all the fear-mongering there has not been a "massive" refugee influx, but a very, very small one. This is an age-old strategy of "make sure those who have less fight each other for scraps instead of asking the rich to pay their fair share."
        sparkling 8y ago
        First: I appreciate you actually making a point, instead of just down voting other opinions. They were massive problems before, i agree, but adding more than 1 million refugees over the course of 2 years (in the case of Germany) adds a very real problem to the housing market and we should be honest about that. You can not blame so called right wing populists for hoping on this issue if other parties fail to even talk about it.
        pluma 8y ago
        I'm German and I have no idea why you think the refugee crisis would pose a "very real problem to the housing market". The housing market hasn't changed much. There's plenty of vacant housing in Germany. It's just not in the places people want to live anymore (i.e. mostly rural East Germany). Housing is scarce in the urban areas but that didn't really change. The 1 million number sounds scary in isolation but it's really just a drop in the bucket. The real problem is our attitude to refugees and our immigration laws: a lot of people are stuck in a legal limbo where they are forced to live off welfare because they're not allowed to seek employment or attend craft schools or universities, many who are technically allowed to do those things only have temporary visas that get extended quarter-to-quarter but could be discontinued at any point. This creates a lot of unnecessary uncertainty while also isolating them socially, hindering "integration", which in turn increases frustration and all kinds of social ills. Additionally, our welfare system is based on the assumption of a growing population but our birth rates are too low, so immigration is actually necessary. There's a lot of untapped potential in the refugee crisis, our attitudes just need to change to see it as an opportunity rather than a problem.
  - seqastian 8y ago
    The rise of populism in Europe maybe?
  - Scarblac 8y ago
    And Brexit.
- gambiting 8y ago
  >>Im pretty sure the fall of the EU has little to do with Facebook Wait, what? EU is doing better than ever and it looks like after Brexit we will enjoy greater integration, and hopefully a full financial and political union in the future. If this is what a "fall" looks like to you, then I don't really know what to say to you - but from the rest of your sentence it seems like you don't like EU as an institution, so I guess it's unlikely you share my enthusiasm for it.
  - fvdessen 8y ago
    Maybe the EU is doing better than ever on some metrics, but I find it quite scary how over the last 20 years, Europe has completely missed the train on technology. We are now in a vassal position where we have to beg foreign CEOs to have some sort of view / control over the technology that runs our society. And it's not getting any better. GDPR is too little too late, and may even be counterproductive[1]. It would have been vastly preferable to have healthy European competitors to Microsoft / Apple / Google / Facebook. But we don't, and probably will never have. The situation with Microsoft in the 90's should have made it obvious of what was to come. Our politicians ignored it entirely. They are now making grand statements about democracy that leave me less than impressed. [1] Some say that GDPR will cement Google / Facebook's advertising monopoly as they are in a much better position to gather data sharing consent from their users than their smaller competitors.
    - tingol 8y ago
      But there's no way to way to fight back for Europe unless EU countries get even more homogeneous laws concerning running a multi-national (basically any online) business. It's easy in the US because they have a large, wealthy and boundary free market with almost no access cost beyond marketing.
      - akie 8y ago
        Also, they all speak the same language. That's huge.
- mikejb 8y ago
  How much of the information about EU politicians robbing people by artificially devaluing currency, influx of illegal refugees, and whatever you could go on about, has been shared and spread through Facebook, generating attention for that information (whether it is accurate or not) in the first place?
  - Dumbdo 8y ago
    Yeah it seems like this guy doesn't even know how the EU works. If you reduce it to "they regulate cucumbers but don't care about real threats" you probably fell for some cheap propaganda but it doesn't speak for your understanding of EU regulations.
    - sparkling 8y ago
      Its not FUD, its not a myth, its not cheap propaganda, its real: Commission Regulation (EEC) No 1677/88 of 15 June 1988 laying down quality standards for cucumbers [1] Yes i know this regulation is no longer in place, thats not the point. The point is that the EU is a overblown bureaucracy that should not be in charge of regulating every silly little aspect of life across the various member states. And yes, they are STILL passing laws like this. Recently they passend regulation that limits the power consumption over regular vacuum cleaners. Do you honestly believe that the average citizen wants highly paid bureaucrats in Brussels debating on how much power a vacuum cleaner should draw? [1] http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31988R1677 http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:319...
      - wierd0 8y ago
        > Do you honestly believe that the average citizen wants highly paid bureaucrats in Brussels debating on how much power a vacuum cleaner should draw? I certainly do. Wait, there is no equivalent discussion of power draw of vacuum cleaners in the US? Well, then the EU might be at the forefront of consumer electronics regulations and in the end, that's very good for me.
        8y ago
- matlock 8y ago
  You should really do your research before saying things like "stop passing silly laws regulating the form of cucumbers" https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/straight-cucumbers/ https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/straight-cucumbers/ This was to make it clearer across all Markets what products you buy to make a single market easier on everyone. This is just FUD that really shouldn't be part of this conversation.
  - sparkling 8y ago
    It's not FUD, its not a myth, its real: Commission Regulation (EEC) No 1677/88 of 15 June 1988 laying down quality standards for cucumbers [1] Yes i know this regulation is no longer in place, thats not the point. The point is that the EU is a overblown bureaucracy that should not be in charge of regulating every silly little aspect of life across the various member states. And yes, they are STILL passing laws like this. Recently they passend regulation that limits the power consumption over regular vacuum cleaners. [1] http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31988R1677 http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:319...
    - icebraining 8y ago
      All that law does is standardize various classes. It's a extremely common measure for facilitating trade, e.g. https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/cucumber-grades-and-standards https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/cucumber-grades-an... https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trade/agr/standard/fresh/FFV-Std/English/15Cucumbers_2010.pdf https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trade/agr/standard/fresh...
      - mikejb 8y ago
        I guess the Facebook post he got his info from didn't mention that.
        ionised 8y ago
        I'm guessing the Daily Mail.
- mns 8y ago
  I thought we are on hackernews here, and not some bullshit propaganda spreading site. Can you provide a documented example of devaluing your currency? Can you provide the number of illegal refugees that came to welfare states (can you name those welfare states?), regulating the form of cucumbers? Who are you, Nigel Farage? https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/straight-cucumbers/ https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/straight-cucumbers/
  - ageek123 8y ago
    > I thought we are on hackernews here, and not some bullshit propaganda spreading site. I had the same wonder after I read the first few paragraphs of the ridiculous article that this thread is about!
  - jules 8y ago
    I assume he is referring to the ECBs bond buying program and to the migrant crisis. He is not wrong that this is the source of dislike of the EU and not Facebook. HN is one of the most extreme echo chambers on this topic.
  - repolfx 8y ago
    Are you aware that in recent years the ECB has engaged in one of the two largest money printing runs in human history? The ECB's balance sheet as a share of GDP is still increasing. Only Japan's central bank has done more. And are you aware that when you create money, the value of that currency drops to reflect that? If it didn't any country could become infinitely wealthy by just printing money endlessly. Obviously printing money doesn't increase the amount of stuff, and printing enough creates inflation that pushes down currency values. The fact that you took this trivial statement and described it as propaganda is very worrying. It seems to me that people have lost the ability to evaluate the EU objectively. As for illegal "refugees" (many of them come from countries that aren't at war), in 2017 204,219 people crossed an EU border illegally compared to 511,074 in 2016 and 1.8 million in 2015. And straight cucumbers - the EU does in fact regulate the straightness of cucumbers. The page you link to says bendy cucumbers aren't banned, they just fall into a different grade. But the OP didn't claim they were banned, he claimed these laws were 'silly' and a waste of time - a subjective evaluation but not propaganda.
- iknowstuff 8y ago
  You are the reason we need to fight fake news. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/11/boris-johnson-launches-the-vote-leave-battlebus-in-cornwall https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/11/boris-johns...
  - sparkling 8y ago
    You realize that this article actually does state: Yes, they ARE regulating power consumption of vacuum cleaners. Apparently you think it is a good idea for some bureaucrats in Brussel to regulate power consumption of vacuums - if you believe that, fine with me, your opinion. But its not "fake news" or FUD. Its real.
    - wierd0 8y ago
      What you are doing in this thread is the definition of spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt around the institution called "EU". I'm personally not against you doing just that. I'm just against you trying to call it something else. Boiling down what you have actually said in this thread I'm left with "but the EU spends money on things that _I_ wouldn't have". Is that the gist of what you are trying to convey here? Or are you opposed to EU as a concept? So, cucumber regulation seems very silly indeed. Hopefully we have gotten to the stuff that matters now.
      - sparkling 8y ago
        Voicing a opinion is not spread fear. Jesus, sometimes HN is worse than 1984.
        mikejb 8y ago
        Voicing an opinion that announces the downfall of a large collective of states is spreading fear though. Maybe you're right and we're heading into a scary future, but it doesn't change that expressing that opinion is spreading fear. Don't get me wrong, you have the right to express that opinion - but everyone has the right to form an opinion about you based on it.
- mpfundstein 8y ago
  I upvoted you because I think you are addressing the root problem. I'd suggest that in future discussions, you back your claims with sources. Then people would not simply downvote you for expressing a 'populist' opinion.
  - musage 8y ago
    How about you back up any of that? "Influx of illegal refugees", for starters; there's refugees, there's illegal immigrants, but the phrase "illegal refugees" is really just some spittle on someone's chin. Speaking of that: Nevermind that sort of mind destroying "language" and how citizens employing it would relate to even the most humble notions of democracy. And never ever you mind the selling of arms, nevermind being accomplice or directly involved in all sorts of things that that makes a big part of these refugees flee in the first place. Fuck Brexit; why isn't Tony Blair in jail? Why is Saudi-Arabia an important ally? Why is Turkey in the NATO? If you're going to talk values or autonomy, maybe don't start with the people who have it worst, start at the top. That's what a lot of "average people" really want when the dust settles, and what you call populism is just controlled opposition and distraction to avoid it, to keep the dust from ever settling. Fuck that. It's murder, and it's outright despicable when you have food and books at your disposal.
- pimmen 8y ago
  "Stop robbing your people by artificially devaluing your currency" As opposed to every other central bank that also has low interest rates because inflation is still terrible? Sweden has negative interest rates for example and we're off the Euro. "Stop the influx of illegal refugees into the welfare states" How do you know if an individual refugee is lying about their refugee status? We can't collectively punish groups of people, the right to asylum is a human right that looks at the need of an individual. Everyone has the right to plead their case individually, no matter what country we're talking about. "Stop passing silly laws regulating the form of cucumbers" This is a myth, those are WTO and OECD regulations not voted on by the EU but by individual countries. However, instead of each EU member enforcing these regulations separately the EU enforces it centrally. If a country leaves the EU it still has to enforce these regulations to follow the WTO and make sure the countries they trade with enforces them as well.
- obelix_ 8y ago
  Democracies once upon a time, in theory atleast, were for the people, by the people, off the people. Post advertising funded internet/24*7 news we just have a system for propping up attention cravers, by the attention merchenants, off everyone elses attention and resources. After creating such an environment do you really believe any of the issues you point out become easier to solve? Fuckerberg is going to go down as the guy who turned the info age into the age of reactions and noise. Nothing else.
patio11 8y ago
Presumably Zuckerberg has learned the lesson of Bill Gates: Europe periodically discovers a reason to fine American tech companies large-but-relatively-immaterial amounts of money. Then you eventually graduate to being Old Money, and Europe reminisces fondly about you.
- skummetmaelk 8y ago
  What a load of crap.
- plopilop 8y ago
  By large-but-immaterial, do you mean the money escaped via tax fraud and illegal tax cuts?
  - mikejb 8y ago
    'fraud' and 'illegal' might be problematic words here. The tax evasion schemes used by large corporations are often considered exploits of loopholes - i.e. technically legal. Countries try to offer companies a system to provide ridiculously low tax rates for larger regions, because if they get 1% of the revenue of the entire region it's more beneficial to them than getting 20% of their local revenue (numbers are fictional here). That's partly also a reason why e.g. Ireland is fighting on Apple's side on the $13bn ruling, despite them loosing out on $13bn. They'd loose the ability to guarantee companies a low tax rate, which is worth far more.
    - askmike 8y ago
      > 'fraud' and 'illegal' might be problematic words here. The tax evasion schemes used by large corporations are often considered exploits of loopholes - i.e. technically legal. In your example on Apple this is not clear at all: there are two legal systems at play (the Irish one and the EU one). Apple is only playing by the rules of the Irish one. The problem comes from the EU saying that the Irish laws are not within the EU framework and thus not allowed. Apple is very much doing not legal things from a perspective of EU law, hence the fine.
tomkinson 8y ago
Agree but his track record is 14 yrs long already. Let's not forget that.
gpvos 8y ago
"It's nearly impossible to get someone to understand something when their livelihood depends on them not understanding it." -- someone I forgot
- pdkl95 8y ago
  > someone I forgot That would be Upton Sinclair. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/
onetimemanytime 8y ago
Zuck probably thinks that he'll have time to redeem himself...ala Gates. But "If I stop now, FB crashes and I can't do as much good"
kodablah 8y ago
> "destroying our democracy and societies" Imagine how you have to talk to a doomsayer like that knowing no matter what you say, there will be no chance to get through to him.
- NicoJuicy 8y ago
  Depends, he's not wrong if facebook is used as a propaganda device
  - kodablah 8y ago
    Disagree. FB will not be our destruction. This kind of hyperbole (and getting others to believe it) harms the type of rational discourse they claim they wanted. I disagree with the evasiveness of course, but this is grandstanding and witch-hunting. With those types of statements, how could one expect a productive inquiry? (hint: one couldn't...it was pandering/posturing and it accomplished that goal)
    - bartread 8y ago
      Inclined to agree. In $job_i_had we dealt with a partner who would routinely ratchet the rhetoric up to the max in this way and all it did was foster bad feeling, damage morale and productivity, as well as block any further useful discourse on whatever topic was under discussion. Not only was it extremely frustrating to deal with, but it didn't achieve anything. It certainly didn't get them what they (thought they) wanted any quicker - quite the opposite in some cases. All this to show off in front of colleagues/superiors/underlings, or to give the impression of doing something or being actively involved in the process whilst actively causing harm and wasting other peoples' time. I was occasionally heard to mutter that they could scarcely have done more to sabotage the project if they were actively trying to, which I don't believe they were. (Btw, I'm not defending facebook: just saying that if you're really making honest enquiries or trying to have a productive discussion, this is not the way to go about it.)
  - catach 8y ago
    At some point that seems to blur into blaming the printing press for propaganda posters.
tjoff 8y ago
"As one of the three big internet giants together with Steve Jobs and Bill Gates..." Please, that's just a poor attempt at flattery, right?

sparkling 8y ago

"Destroying democracies"? Oh please. Im pretty sure the fall of the EU has little to do with Facebook. Maybe these EU officials should look at their own parlament for blame for once. Perhaps stop robbing your people by artificially devaluing your currency, stop the influx of illegal refugees into the welfare states, stop passing silly laws regulating the form of cucumbers etc. - i could go on and on.

ageek123 8y ago
The issue isn't the (alleged) "fall" of the EU as much as the fact that the EU (and, to a lesser extent, US Congress) wants to shut down platforms that host content that is not aligned with their political viewpoint. None of this hysteria would be happening if 55,000 fewer Americans had voted for Trump (and thus Clinton won), or about a million people who voted for Leave instead had voted for Remain. The obvious partisanship behind the Facebook frenzy is galling and should negate it on its face.
flukus 8y ago
I think that was a reference to the US election interference, not the EU.
- repolfx 8y ago
  It's both. Verhofstadt is a full-blown European federalist (people who want Europe to be united under a single government and single flag). The fortunes of that dream have not been good lately, and he's looking for people to blame that aren't people like himself. I find it pathetic. Verhofstadt and people like him are one of the things that turned me off the EU and turned me into a Brexit voter. They routinely describe almost anything they don't like as "destroying democracy" or "violating democratic norms" regardless of the facts of the matter. In reality they couldn't give a rats ass about what the people want. Just compare cross-Europe opinion polls asking people what they think the top priorities of government should be (hint: immigration, terrorism) vs what the EU actually chooses to do.
  - ricardobeat 8y ago
    As an EU resident I am so, so glad immigration and terrorism are not priorities. There are more important things to worry about (such as privacy, housing, equality, welfare).
    - sparkling 8y ago
      You realize that massive refugee influx directly affects topics such as housing, equality, welfare - right?
      - sgift 8y ago
        Only in the dreams of some people where all of these were not massive problems before. Sure, more people may make some very small dent on these issues, but nothing remotely relevant. Despite all the fear-mongering there has not been a "massive" refugee influx, but a very, very small one. This is an age-old strategy of "make sure those who have less fight each other for scraps instead of asking the rich to pay their fair share."
        sparkling 8y ago
        First: I appreciate you actually making a point, instead of just down voting other opinions. They were massive problems before, i agree, but adding more than 1 million refugees over the course of 2 years (in the case of Germany) adds a very real problem to the housing market and we should be honest about that. You can not blame so called right wing populists for hoping on this issue if other parties fail to even talk about it.
        pluma 8y ago
        I'm German and I have no idea why you think the refugee crisis would pose a "very real problem to the housing market". The housing market hasn't changed much. There's plenty of vacant housing in Germany. It's just not in the places people want to live anymore (i.e. mostly rural East Germany). Housing is scarce in the urban areas but that didn't really change. The 1 million number sounds scary in isolation but it's really just a drop in the bucket. The real problem is our attitude to refugees and our immigration laws: a lot of people are stuck in a legal limbo where they are forced to live off welfare because they're not allowed to seek employment or attend craft schools or universities, many who are technically allowed to do those things only have temporary visas that get extended quarter-to-quarter but could be discontinued at any point. This creates a lot of unnecessary uncertainty while also isolating them socially, hindering "integration", which in turn increases frustration and all kinds of social ills. Additionally, our welfare system is based on the assumption of a growing population but our birth rates are too low, so immigration is actually necessary. There's a lot of untapped potential in the refugee crisis, our attitudes just need to change to see it as an opportunity rather than a problem.
- seqastian 8y ago
  The rise of populism in Europe maybe?
- Scarblac 8y ago
  And Brexit.
gambiting 8y ago
>>Im pretty sure the fall of the EU has little to do with Facebook Wait, what? EU is doing better than ever and it looks like after Brexit we will enjoy greater integration, and hopefully a full financial and political union in the future. If this is what a "fall" looks like to you, then I don't really know what to say to you - but from the rest of your sentence it seems like you don't like EU as an institution, so I guess it's unlikely you share my enthusiasm for it.
- fvdessen 8y ago
  Maybe the EU is doing better than ever on some metrics, but I find it quite scary how over the last 20 years, Europe has completely missed the train on technology. We are now in a vassal position where we have to beg foreign CEOs to have some sort of view / control over the technology that runs our society. And it's not getting any better. GDPR is too little too late, and may even be counterproductive[1]. It would have been vastly preferable to have healthy European competitors to Microsoft / Apple / Google / Facebook. But we don't, and probably will never have. The situation with Microsoft in the 90's should have made it obvious of what was to come. Our politicians ignored it entirely. They are now making grand statements about democracy that leave me less than impressed. [1] Some say that GDPR will cement Google / Facebook's advertising monopoly as they are in a much better position to gather data sharing consent from their users than their smaller competitors.
  - tingol 8y ago
    But there's no way to way to fight back for Europe unless EU countries get even more homogeneous laws concerning running a multi-national (basically any online) business. It's easy in the US because they have a large, wealthy and boundary free market with almost no access cost beyond marketing.
    - akie 8y ago
      Also, they all speak the same language. That's huge.
mikejb 8y ago
How much of the information about EU politicians robbing people by artificially devaluing currency, influx of illegal refugees, and whatever you could go on about, has been shared and spread through Facebook, generating attention for that information (whether it is accurate or not) in the first place?
- Dumbdo 8y ago
  Yeah it seems like this guy doesn't even know how the EU works. If you reduce it to "they regulate cucumbers but don't care about real threats" you probably fell for some cheap propaganda but it doesn't speak for your understanding of EU regulations.
  - sparkling 8y ago
    Its not FUD, its not a myth, its not cheap propaganda, its real: Commission Regulation (EEC) No 1677/88 of 15 June 1988 laying down quality standards for cucumbers [1] Yes i know this regulation is no longer in place, thats not the point. The point is that the EU is a overblown bureaucracy that should not be in charge of regulating every silly little aspect of life across the various member states. And yes, they are STILL passing laws like this. Recently they passend regulation that limits the power consumption over regular vacuum cleaners. Do you honestly believe that the average citizen wants highly paid bureaucrats in Brussels debating on how much power a vacuum cleaner should draw? [1] http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31988R1677 http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:319...
    - wierd0 8y ago
      > Do you honestly believe that the average citizen wants highly paid bureaucrats in Brussels debating on how much power a vacuum cleaner should draw? I certainly do. Wait, there is no equivalent discussion of power draw of vacuum cleaners in the US? Well, then the EU might be at the forefront of consumer electronics regulations and in the end, that's very good for me.
      - 8y ago
matlock 8y ago
You should really do your research before saying things like "stop passing silly laws regulating the form of cucumbers" https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/straight-cucumbers/ https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/straight-cucumbers/ This was to make it clearer across all Markets what products you buy to make a single market easier on everyone. This is just FUD that really shouldn't be part of this conversation.
- sparkling 8y ago
  It's not FUD, its not a myth, its real: Commission Regulation (EEC) No 1677/88 of 15 June 1988 laying down quality standards for cucumbers [1] Yes i know this regulation is no longer in place, thats not the point. The point is that the EU is a overblown bureaucracy that should not be in charge of regulating every silly little aspect of life across the various member states. And yes, they are STILL passing laws like this. Recently they passend regulation that limits the power consumption over regular vacuum cleaners. [1] http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31988R1677 http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:319...
  - icebraining 8y ago
    All that law does is standardize various classes. It's a extremely common measure for facilitating trade, e.g. https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/cucumber-grades-and-standards https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/cucumber-grades-an... https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trade/agr/standard/fresh/FFV-Std/English/15Cucumbers_2010.pdf https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trade/agr/standard/fresh...
    - mikejb 8y ago
      I guess the Facebook post he got his info from didn't mention that.
      - ionised 8y ago
        I'm guessing the Daily Mail.
mns 8y ago
I thought we are on hackernews here, and not some bullshit propaganda spreading site. Can you provide a documented example of devaluing your currency? Can you provide the number of illegal refugees that came to welfare states (can you name those welfare states?), regulating the form of cucumbers? Who are you, Nigel Farage? https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/straight-cucumbers/ https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/straight-cucumbers/
- ageek123 8y ago
  > I thought we are on hackernews here, and not some bullshit propaganda spreading site. I had the same wonder after I read the first few paragraphs of the ridiculous article that this thread is about!
- jules 8y ago
  I assume he is referring to the ECBs bond buying program and to the migrant crisis. He is not wrong that this is the source of dislike of the EU and not Facebook. HN is one of the most extreme echo chambers on this topic.
- repolfx 8y ago
  Are you aware that in recent years the ECB has engaged in one of the two largest money printing runs in human history? The ECB's balance sheet as a share of GDP is still increasing. Only Japan's central bank has done more. And are you aware that when you create money, the value of that currency drops to reflect that? If it didn't any country could become infinitely wealthy by just printing money endlessly. Obviously printing money doesn't increase the amount of stuff, and printing enough creates inflation that pushes down currency values. The fact that you took this trivial statement and described it as propaganda is very worrying. It seems to me that people have lost the ability to evaluate the EU objectively. As for illegal "refugees" (many of them come from countries that aren't at war), in 2017 204,219 people crossed an EU border illegally compared to 511,074 in 2016 and 1.8 million in 2015. And straight cucumbers - the EU does in fact regulate the straightness of cucumbers. The page you link to says bendy cucumbers aren't banned, they just fall into a different grade. But the OP didn't claim they were banned, he claimed these laws were 'silly' and a waste of time - a subjective evaluation but not propaganda.
iknowstuff 8y ago
You are the reason we need to fight fake news. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/11/boris-johnson-launches-the-vote-leave-battlebus-in-cornwall https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/11/boris-johns...
- sparkling 8y ago
  You realize that this article actually does state: Yes, they ARE regulating power consumption of vacuum cleaners. Apparently you think it is a good idea for some bureaucrats in Brussel to regulate power consumption of vacuums - if you believe that, fine with me, your opinion. But its not "fake news" or FUD. Its real.
  - wierd0 8y ago
    What you are doing in this thread is the definition of spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt around the institution called "EU". I'm personally not against you doing just that. I'm just against you trying to call it something else. Boiling down what you have actually said in this thread I'm left with "but the EU spends money on things that _I_ wouldn't have". Is that the gist of what you are trying to convey here? Or are you opposed to EU as a concept? So, cucumber regulation seems very silly indeed. Hopefully we have gotten to the stuff that matters now.
    - sparkling 8y ago
      Voicing a opinion is not spread fear. Jesus, sometimes HN is worse than 1984.
      - mikejb 8y ago
        Voicing an opinion that announces the downfall of a large collective of states is spreading fear though. Maybe you're right and we're heading into a scary future, but it doesn't change that expressing that opinion is spreading fear. Don't get me wrong, you have the right to express that opinion - but everyone has the right to form an opinion about you based on it.
mpfundstein 8y ago
I upvoted you because I think you are addressing the root problem. I'd suggest that in future discussions, you back your claims with sources. Then people would not simply downvote you for expressing a 'populist' opinion.
- musage 8y ago
  How about you back up any of that? "Influx of illegal refugees", for starters; there's refugees, there's illegal immigrants, but the phrase "illegal refugees" is really just some spittle on someone's chin. Speaking of that: Nevermind that sort of mind destroying "language" and how citizens employing it would relate to even the most humble notions of democracy. And never ever you mind the selling of arms, nevermind being accomplice or directly involved in all sorts of things that that makes a big part of these refugees flee in the first place. Fuck Brexit; why isn't Tony Blair in jail? Why is Saudi-Arabia an important ally? Why is Turkey in the NATO? If you're going to talk values or autonomy, maybe don't start with the people who have it worst, start at the top. That's what a lot of "average people" really want when the dust settles, and what you call populism is just controlled opposition and distraction to avoid it, to keep the dust from ever settling. Fuck that. It's murder, and it's outright despicable when you have food and books at your disposal.
pimmen 8y ago
"Stop robbing your people by artificially devaluing your currency" As opposed to every other central bank that also has low interest rates because inflation is still terrible? Sweden has negative interest rates for example and we're off the Euro. "Stop the influx of illegal refugees into the welfare states" How do you know if an individual refugee is lying about their refugee status? We can't collectively punish groups of people, the right to asylum is a human right that looks at the need of an individual. Everyone has the right to plead their case individually, no matter what country we're talking about. "Stop passing silly laws regulating the form of cucumbers" This is a myth, those are WTO and OECD regulations not voted on by the EU but by individual countries. However, instead of each EU member enforcing these regulations separately the EU enforces it centrally. If a country leaves the EU it still has to enforce these regulations to follow the WTO and make sure the countries they trade with enforces them as well.
obelix_ 8y ago
Democracies once upon a time, in theory atleast, were for the people, by the people, off the people. Post advertising funded internet/24*7 news we just have a system for propping up attention cravers, by the attention merchenants, off everyone elses attention and resources. After creating such an environment do you really believe any of the issues you point out become easier to solve? Fuckerberg is going to go down as the guy who turned the info age into the age of reactions and noise. Nothing else.

patio11 8y ago

Presumably Zuckerberg has learned the lesson of Bill Gates: Europe periodically discovers a reason to fine American tech companies large-but-relatively-immaterial amounts of money. Then you eventually graduate to being Old Money, and Europe reminisces fondly about you.

skummetmaelk 8y ago
What a load of crap.
plopilop 8y ago
By large-but-immaterial, do you mean the money escaped via tax fraud and illegal tax cuts?
- mikejb 8y ago
  'fraud' and 'illegal' might be problematic words here. The tax evasion schemes used by large corporations are often considered exploits of loopholes - i.e. technically legal. Countries try to offer companies a system to provide ridiculously low tax rates for larger regions, because if they get 1% of the revenue of the entire region it's more beneficial to them than getting 20% of their local revenue (numbers are fictional here). That's partly also a reason why e.g. Ireland is fighting on Apple's side on the $13bn ruling, despite them loosing out on $13bn. They'd loose the ability to guarantee companies a low tax rate, which is worth far more.
  - askmike 8y ago
    > 'fraud' and 'illegal' might be problematic words here. The tax evasion schemes used by large corporations are often considered exploits of loopholes - i.e. technically legal. In your example on Apple this is not clear at all: there are two legal systems at play (the Irish one and the EU one). Apple is only playing by the rules of the Irish one. The problem comes from the EU saying that the Irish laws are not within the EU framework and thus not allowed. Apple is very much doing not legal things from a perspective of EU law, hence the fine.

tomkinson 8y ago

Agree but his track record is 14 yrs long already. Let's not forget that.

gpvos 8y ago

"It's nearly impossible to get someone to understand something when their livelihood depends on them not understanding it." -- someone I forgot

pdkl95 8y ago
> someone I forgot That would be Upton Sinclair. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/

onetimemanytime 8y ago

Zuck probably thinks that he'll have time to redeem himself...ala Gates. But "If I stop now, FB crashes and I can't do as much good"

kodablah 8y ago

> "destroying our democracy and societies" Imagine how you have to talk to a doomsayer like that knowing no matter what you say, there will be no chance to get through to him.

NicoJuicy 8y ago
Depends, he's not wrong if facebook is used as a propaganda device
- kodablah 8y ago
  Disagree. FB will not be our destruction. This kind of hyperbole (and getting others to believe it) harms the type of rational discourse they claim they wanted. I disagree with the evasiveness of course, but this is grandstanding and witch-hunting. With those types of statements, how could one expect a productive inquiry? (hint: one couldn't...it was pandering/posturing and it accomplished that goal)
  - bartread 8y ago
    Inclined to agree. In $job_i_had we dealt with a partner who would routinely ratchet the rhetoric up to the max in this way and all it did was foster bad feeling, damage morale and productivity, as well as block any further useful discourse on whatever topic was under discussion. Not only was it extremely frustrating to deal with, but it didn't achieve anything. It certainly didn't get them what they (thought they) wanted any quicker - quite the opposite in some cases. All this to show off in front of colleagues/superiors/underlings, or to give the impression of doing something or being actively involved in the process whilst actively causing harm and wasting other peoples' time. I was occasionally heard to mutter that they could scarcely have done more to sabotage the project if they were actively trying to, which I don't believe they were. (Btw, I'm not defending facebook: just saying that if you're really making honest enquiries or trying to have a productive discussion, this is not the way to go about it.)
- catach 8y ago
  At some point that seems to blur into blaming the printing press for propaganda posters.

tjoff 8y ago

"As one of the three big internet giants together with Steve Jobs and Bill Gates..." Please, that's just a poor attempt at flattery, right?