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Philip Roth has died
- moonka 8y agoHis book "Plot Against America" helped to change my worldview. It was the first time I thought about the fact that it was not a foregone conclusion that America is a country that hadn't fallen to fascism in the mid 20th century, and led to me start reading history with a more critical eye. After that I realized just how much history is comprised of shades of grey rather than right and wrong.
- scandox 8y agoI enjoyed it but I found the ending ludicrous. It turned into a kind of political melodrama. Which I thought was a pity. Sabbath's Theatre I enjoyed much more. I think he was always best when he was focused on the personal.
- baxtr 8y agoI have made the experience that merely anything in life has shades of grey. It causes a lot of cognitive dissonance for me. For most people, including me, it is thus easier to simply stick to one particular world view. At least for a certain time. So as a smart person, either you are some sort of “schizophrenic” or you ignore some facts and possible interpretations and stick firmly to one side of the coin. Both is difficult
- hfeyhvdtbcdtv 8y ago"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function." F. Scott Fitzgerald
- westoncb 8y agoI think you're right, and there's definitely a balance to be had here. The first time I came across the notion that there might be a downside to keeping everything 'hypothetical' was in reading William James (I think it was in his Pragmatism lectures). He points out the opposition between 'thought' and 'action'. There is a tradeoff in continuing to think about certain subjects in that your ability to act on things related to the subject is impaired. If there is nothing left to question in relation to some domain in which you'd like to act, then the actions you take will carry force and generally be more effective. A more concrete example: let's say you're a tennis player and working on improving yourself. You can keep on questioning whether a certain technique for swinging is the best one or not, and if you keep questioning for a longer time, you have a better chance of finding the best technique. But, you're ability to execute that technique is another thing entirely, and if you're still questioning it while playing a game, you will perform worse than if you acted with conviction. In life, perhaps unfortunately, we don't get the clear distinction between when it's a 'game' vs. 'practice', and force of habit is a thing, so how to handle this for optimal results is not such an easy problem.
- acqq 8y ago> It causes a lot of cognitive dissonance for me. Why? To understand what is actually going on one doesn't have to be in the "dissonant" state. What's needed is just the understanding that simplifications we use to "model" the surroundings are just that, and be aware of the cases when our models are too wrong to even be the right simplification in the given context. In short, in some contexts, a "spherical cow" is approximate enough, in some others, it isn't. And both the "model" and what is "enough" can be checked for validity of the assumption. The same should be done for the sources of your information: are they biased by design? Do they have an agenda? Can you directly confirm that the information they present is valid? Sometimes even a lot of "information" hides some basic facts that, when considered, would invalidate the whole premise of the specific "presentation." Politically, you don't have to believe in everything the "messenger" stands for to check and accept that some specific information is true. An example, one thinker noted: - The effective political definition in the USA media of the "peace process" is simply "whatever option the USA wants in the moment." Therefore, it's by definition impossible that the USA is "against the peace process" and such news you will never read, even if the USA actively supports the war for years. This claim can be verified. And if true, it gives you a different perspective of the news you read. Orwellian, in 1984 sense? Sure. People always think that such works of fiction are "simply a fiction." In fact, they are very much based on the real-life experiences of the author in his world in the time he lived. The ways humans interact doesn't change fast, the same patterns can be traced through the centuries. Another example: I've found out that Tom Lehrer sung "The Wild West Is Where I Want to Be" in 1953. (Knowing the lyrics is needed to be able to follow). Not knowing enough, I didn't understand that he was able to make such a song then. But checking his biography (on the internet) it seems that he as a mathematician before he wrote the song worked for the NSA (or whatever the equivalent was called then) in the places where actual atomic bomb tests were prepared. He personally seems to confirm that in some of his recorded appearances cheerfully saying something like "I was in the West working as the spy." Understand that gives you a new view to his lyrics. The third example, real life actually has enough "movie like" stories: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium_Girls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium_Girls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mincemeat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mincemeat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg
- dibstern 8y agoI disagree. You can realise your ignorance without having to immediately correct every instance of it. And you can enjoy the slow uncovering of new information and points of view, building each into your worldview bit by bit. This is part of the joy of life, for me, the journey to deeper and deeper levels of understanding of the world. And a decision to stick to one side is, in my opinion, a little lazy. No insult meant, it’s just that you seem unwilling to do the work and exert the extra mental effort, which is the dictionary definition. It seems like you have deemed dealing with complexity impossible so as to give yourself an excuse to remain biased. It’s not so difficult to enjoy being skeptical of both sides, and to prevent yourself from blindly accepting the narrative of one coin. And I feel like the world would be a great deal better if we all stopped preferring one side of the coin and appreciating both.
- baxtr 8y agoMaybe you're right. I will think about it
- kbutler 8y agoFish or cut bait. Often the expected value of committing to one side, even if it is not the optimal choice, exceeds the probable value of the optimal choice delayed for additional evaluation. But there is a human tendency to increasingly feel that one's choice is more obviously correct than it really was, leading to discounting contrary evidence and even demonizing those who make the opposite choice.
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- Andre_Wanglin 8y agoYes, why do we perceive that countries "fall" into fascism but "progress" into socialism? It's as simple as the fact that the latter wound up being better at mass murder.
- WiseWeasel 8y agoWhy does a tyrant's marketing campaign matter?
- Andre_Wanglin 8y agoIt is of no interest to you how some tyrants come to be reviled while others are lionized?
- WiseWeasel 8y agoNot really. The ones doing the lionizing are obviously deceived or fearful for their lives and loved ones.
- Andre_Wanglin 8y agoYou don't think the outcome of world-historic events influences a society's honestly held views of historical figures? That seems such a bizarre view and difficult to defend when the events themselves almost pale in comparison to the narratives that follow them and persist for decades, if not centuries, afterward.
- pavlov 8y agoIs that really your takeaway from Philip Roth’s work? Maybe you were reading David Lee Roth by accident?
- Andre_Wanglin 8y agoNo, it is my reaction to the commenter's reaction to this article about Philip Roth's death.
- mratzloff 8y agoThis is tangential, but in 1933 major bankers, including JP Morgan, allegedly (and, in my mind, likely) plotted a fascist coup via a veterans' organization. The summer before, 17,000 veterans, most in their 30s, had gathered to violently demand payment of their WWI bonuses. The bankers plotted to foment and channel this anger to overthrow FDR, whom they despised. They failed in the early stages thanks to a retired major general that they approached to lead it instead exposing it to Congress.
- majos 8y agoThat retired general was Smedley Butler, who among other things is the only person to receive two different Medals of Honor (the other 18 double recipients got two from different military branches for the same action). He later became a major critic of the military-industrial complex. Remarkable guy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler
- chengiz 8y agoThis is a conspiracy theory. In all likelihood it was just a few fascist businessmen concocting dream scenarios. Reactions [1]: "No doubt, MacGuire did have some wild scheme in mind, though the gap between contemplation and execution was considerable, and it can hardly be supposed that the Republic was in much danger" "At their core, the accusations probably consisted of a mixture of actual attempts at influence peddling by a small core of financiers with ties to veterans organizations and the self-serving accusations of Butler against the enemies of his pacifist and populist causes." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot#Later_reactions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot#Later_reactions
- mratzloff 8y agoThe full extent of the plot is unclear, but that there was some kind of plot is certain. Many financial and business leaders of the time were rumored to be fascists like Lindbergh.[1] Of course, if you compare Butler's handler to the strange cast of characters in the history of widely-known American political plots (Watergate, Iran-Contra, etc.), truth is often stranger than fiction. [1] William Dodd, the U.S. Ambassador to Germany, in a letter to FDR (from the same link above): "A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime. ... A prominent executive of one of the largest corporations, told me point blank that he would be ready to take definite action to bring fascism into America if President Roosevelt continued his progressive policies. Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there. Propagandists for fascist groups try to dismiss the fascist scare. We should be aware of the symptoms. When industrialists ignore laws designed for social and economic progress they will seek recourse to a fascist state when the institutions of our government compel them to comply with the provisions."
- zorked 8y agoAn astonishing writer who couldn't write a bad book. But one is allowed to pick favorites, so here they go: Operation Shylock, I married a communist, and The plot against America.
- dannylandau 8y agoI've read only 3 1/2 of his books: Operation Shylock, Plot against America, Portnoys complaint: and part of American Pastoral -- which I had trouble getting through. I wonder if others found it too dense? Otherwise, the above 3 books are really great!
- HelloNurse 8y agoRead all of American Pastoral. After the sad and slightly less interesting middle section, the plot flares up right at the end, as a long prepared payoff.
- mhall12 8y agoSo much subtext in that book.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- westoncb 8y agoI started reading Roth a couple months ago as part of a project to learn how to write better fiction (I also chose Philip K. Dick at the same time for some reason...). I partly chose Roth after seeing by how much he outnumbered any other writer in terms of entries for best 100 novels of the 20th century (I don't remember who published the list, but it was something pretty credible, and he had 6 entries on there IIRC). I started with Portnoy's Complaint and enjoyed it, but I wasn't blown away or anything. More recently I've been reading a novelette + 5 short stories in a single volume (named after the novelette) titled, "Goodbye, Columbus"—and I've been seriously impressed. I finished the novelette and 2.5 of the short stories; both short stories were astounding (IMO), and the novelette was damn good. My understanding is that the themes of being Jewish in the U.S. and male sexuality are solidly mainstays in his writing, which at first seemed like would limit the material's interest to me, since I'm not Jewish at all—but if you read descriptions of his novels across the years you'll find a very interesting (bordering on bizarre at times) range. I'm looking forward to reading more.
- Andre_Wanglin 8y agoYou might like My Life as A Man. Read some online reviews first, though. Especially the angry ones. If those give you a laugh, you should definitely read it.
- dev_dev 8y agoOnline reviews usually tend towards the popular opinion.
- selimthegrim 8y agoThe only book I read of his was Patrimony, about his relationship with his declining father, which I really enjoyed.
- the_af 8y agoI love "Goodbye, Columbus" and its companion short stories, which I re-read from time to time. I think my favorite, aside from the titular story, is "The Conversion of the Jews". I think Philip Roth's stories have just the right mix of American life, Jewishness and simply universal middle class life experiences, which is why I -- a non-practicing, atheist Jew not in touch with his heritage, and who's not from the US -- can enjoy them.
- cylinder 8y agoI just learnt about him and ordered my first book of his last night. Odd.
- pervycreeper 8y ago>I just learnt about him and ordered my first book of his last night. Odd. No odder than any of the billions of cases of people who hadn't just learned about him and ordered their first book of his last night, though. Edit: this is the same fallacy behind a good portion of claims of "miracles" and "supernatural" phenomena, and other apparent coincidences. If no one bought his book on the night before he died, that would be odd. Not sure why all the hate.
- cylinder 8y agoIt's an odd experience for me personally, not an odd experience for the cosmos.
- onra87 8y agoLast year, he was one of the 18 authors to be published, while still alive, in the "Bibliothèque de la Pléiade". (More than 250 authors has been published in this collection) It is a reference edition in France of the complete works of classic authors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblioth%C3%A8que_de_la_Pl%C3%A9iade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblioth%C3%A8que_de_la_Pl%C3%...
- whatsstolat 8y agohttps://outline.com/p3eJS4 https://outline.com/p3eJS4
- gattr 8y agoThere is a scene in Peter F. Hamilton's SF novel "Fallen Dragon" which immediately made me remember the restaurant "joke" from "Portnoy's Complaint". SPOILER Only here, the protagonist vomits violently after learning he's been treated (by his weirdo girlfriend) to some actual real meat from, yuck... a killed animal... not your regular vat-grown meat that every civilized person eats. Oh, the power of childhood programming/imprinting...
- IloveHN84 8y agoNever heard of him before this news..I imagine he wrote good things
- sorokod 8y agoThe Guardian: Readers’ memories and tributes https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/23/at-each-book-i-gasp-in-admiration-your-tributes-to-philip-roth https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/23/at-each-book-i...
- Gimpei 8y agoShould have won the Nobel. Why they never picked him is beyond me.
- benkarst 8y agoThe article called Roth "one of the last great white males". I had to read that five times to make sure that phrase was actually used. wtf. How is this okay on any level?
- runjake 8y agoCalm down. I believe the term has to do with age, and not race. It's a post-war (WW2) term that's been used for decades to describe Roth and certain other writers, such as Norman Mailer, Gore Vidal, Salinger, Bellow, Updike and others. It's a term to describe a group of certain authors that wrote about certain themes, similar to the Hollywood term "Brat Pack".
- msla 8y ago> I believe the term has to do with hair color, and not race. Was this dumb joke worth making the second line of your post? Anyway, it resonates with the "Great White Hunter" idea, which is even less acceptable today, and, to some extent, with the "Great White Whale" of Moby Dick. It's a simple fact about race, to a simple extent, and it's an expression that they were on top in a way no group will (should) ever be again.
- benkarst 8y agoSilly me, I didn't know "white" is a term that describes age.
- runjake 8y agoIt's often used (as in this case) a colloquial term alluding age via hair color (IOW, "white-haired" old people).
- VoodooJuJu 8y agoIt's not - the pendulum is beginning to swing in the other direction. People are starting to wise up to and reject these group identity narratives, as evidenced by the rising popularity of people like Jordan Peterson.
- vonnik 8y agoDavid Foster Wallace wrote a review of an Updike book in 1998 that also shed some light on Roth: http://observer.com/1997/10/john-updike-champion-literary-phallocrat-drops-one-is-this-finally-the-end-for-magnificent-narcissists/ http://observer.com/1997/10/john-updike-champion-literary-ph...
- t3rseCode 8y agoBrilliant and spot on. Everything here applies to the only Roth novel I read, Everyman.