10 ms·

I know the opinion will vary from person to person, but if this is a 1984 dystopia, then Orwell over-hyped the downsides to a 1984 dystopia. (... I don't actua

I know the opinion will vary from person to person, but if this is a 1984 dystopia, then Orwell over-hyped the downsides to a 1984 dystopia. (... I don't actually think it's a 1984 dystopia, mind ;) ).

syshum 8y ago
It is sad that people have the delusion they are really free, unable to see they are actually in a guided cage. I am sure there were many in Oceania perfectly content with their life, thinking they were free because they never butted up against the edges of their cage, they never tested the limits of their "freedom", they were "respectable" citizens doing as the government said
- gknoy 8y ago
  > I am sure there were many in Oceania perfectly content with their life, thinking they were free because they never butted up against the edges of their cage I do not recall getting that impression when I read 1984. Rather, the majority of the proles were absolutely under the figurative boot, and kept there via fear. Even the Inner Party were aware of the edges of their cage -- either they tested them and got reconditioned, or they were all-in on the dystopia, but I don't think that counts as thinking that they were free. Rather, they traded freedom for power over others.
- schrodinger 8y ago
  What edges of your cage do you bump up against?
scarecrowbob 8y ago
The boring observation that I can make is that the folks living in that dystopia were very good at thinking that it was a dystopia. I know that's a circular epistemic wormhole to get into, but simply liking the authoritarian surveillance you live in doesn't remove the features that make it authoritarian and intimately surveilling you.
- fixermark 8y ago
  Right, but doesn't it remove the notion that the authoritarian, intimate-surveillance features are necessarily bad things? To stay in dystopian sci-fi: The computers on the Enterprise (TNG at least) were aware of crewmember's positions and health situation at all times as long as they were aboard ship. Do we imagine they felt spied upon? It seems instead being born into a world where surveillance is ubiquitous and benign-to-benevolent, they were fine with it. Maybe we can build that world instead of assuming the end-result is 1984 every time.
  - syshum 8y ago
    >>Maybe we can build that world instead of assuming the end-result is 1984 every time. The Key difference between the 2 is Resource Limitation. In 1984 Society had limited resources, in Star Trek it was a Post Scarcity Civilization. Star Trek is not possible while we have limited resources, invent replicator tech then you might have the ability to create a Star Trek society, no replicators no Star Trek
  - jodrellblank 8y ago
    The Enterprise was a flagship Starship, the people aboard were the best of the Starfleet Academy, aboard for a limited duration pseudo-military expedition. This is akin to saying "humans on board the IIS are monitored intensely, do they feel spied upon? Therefore we should all be willing and able to live for a lifetime with that level of monitoring". And not taking into account that IIS visits are undertaken by very unusual, pre-selected people, for limited durations, being monitored by a single organization, mostly for the purposes of research and protecting their investment. Which is completely not anything like reality for most people, where things are operated by goodness knows who, for goodness knows what reasons, and barely or not at all regulated against potential abuse.

syshum 8y ago

It is sad that people have the delusion they are really free, unable to see they are actually in a guided cage. I am sure there were many in Oceania perfectly content with their life, thinking they were free because they never butted up against the edges of their cage, they never tested the limits of their "freedom", they were "respectable" citizens doing as the government said

gknoy 8y ago
> I am sure there were many in Oceania perfectly content with their life, thinking they were free because they never butted up against the edges of their cage I do not recall getting that impression when I read 1984. Rather, the majority of the proles were absolutely under the figurative boot, and kept there via fear. Even the Inner Party were aware of the edges of their cage -- either they tested them and got reconditioned, or they were all-in on the dystopia, but I don't think that counts as thinking that they were free. Rather, they traded freedom for power over others.
schrodinger 8y ago
What edges of your cage do you bump up against?

scarecrowbob 8y ago

The boring observation that I can make is that the folks living in that dystopia were very good at thinking that it was a dystopia. I know that's a circular epistemic wormhole to get into, but simply liking the authoritarian surveillance you live in doesn't remove the features that make it authoritarian and intimately surveilling you.

fixermark 8y ago
Right, but doesn't it remove the notion that the authoritarian, intimate-surveillance features are necessarily bad things? To stay in dystopian sci-fi: The computers on the Enterprise (TNG at least) were aware of crewmember's positions and health situation at all times as long as they were aboard ship. Do we imagine they felt spied upon? It seems instead being born into a world where surveillance is ubiquitous and benign-to-benevolent, they were fine with it. Maybe we can build that world instead of assuming the end-result is 1984 every time.
- syshum 8y ago
  >>Maybe we can build that world instead of assuming the end-result is 1984 every time. The Key difference between the 2 is Resource Limitation. In 1984 Society had limited resources, in Star Trek it was a Post Scarcity Civilization. Star Trek is not possible while we have limited resources, invent replicator tech then you might have the ability to create a Star Trek society, no replicators no Star Trek
- jodrellblank 8y ago
  The Enterprise was a flagship Starship, the people aboard were the best of the Starfleet Academy, aboard for a limited duration pseudo-military expedition. This is akin to saying "humans on board the IIS are monitored intensely, do they feel spied upon? Therefore we should all be willing and able to live for a lifetime with that level of monitoring". And not taking into account that IIS visits are undertaken by very unusual, pre-selected people, for limited durations, being monitored by a single organization, mostly for the purposes of research and protecting their investment. Which is completely not anything like reality for most people, where things are operated by goodness knows who, for goodness knows what reasons, and barely or not at all regulated against potential abuse.