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> It is not inappropriate for police to be able to determine who they are interacting with if that person is a known criminal. Everyone is a criminal. You com

> It is not inappropriate for police to be able to determine who they are interacting with if that person is a known criminal. Everyone is a criminal. You commit multiple crimes a day if you're like most people. There absolutely should be a clear delineation between what is possible and what is allowed when considering state surveillance. The 4th amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." It's right there. You have a right to be secure as a person from unreasonable searches. Massive face recognition of 'criminals' is a violation of exactly that, and should be prevented without question.

fixermark 8y ago
Reasonable people can disagree on the definition of "unreasonable," however. Is it "unreasonable" for the Amber Alert system to co-opt the eyes and attention of ten thousand citizens around a kidnapped child? Hard to say. Most people seem to think 'no.' If that system could co-opt camera feeds instead of human attention, we could get most (all?) of the benefits of the existing Amber Alert without having to burn civilian resources on it. Wouldn't that be a strict improvement over the current system?
- yayana 8y ago
  And why stop at Amber alerts once the resources to perform the search no longer complain or question oddities about the alert?
- blitmap 8y ago
  I definitely feel like we're missing positive opportunities for mass surveillance. Things like being able to recognize someone in cardiac arrest, or who is at risk for a stroke. Someday mass surveillance will help as much as it hurts society.
  - doorbumper 8y ago
    What's interesting is that anyone implementing mass surveillance could care less about your proposed benefits.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      Or exactly the opposite - it may be their primary motivation, with the negatives ending up being caused by others co-opting the system.
    - Buttons840 8y ago
      I believe technology will ever erode privacy, and that the best we can hope for is to make sure the transparency goes both ways. The government should become more transparent to the people as the people become more transparent to the government. Like you though, I'm afraid we'll end up with a vast and reliable surveillance system which police will be able to use, while the police themselves are still "struggling" to get their body cams to work reliably.
    - megy 8y ago
      > could care less about your proposed benefits. Could they? Oh well, that is at least something then.
  - StanislavPetrov 8y ago
    Many prisons have blanket surveillance systems. I suggest you ask the prisoners how beneficial they find it, and extrapolate.
    - fixermark 8y ago
      "Prison has X, therefore X is bad" isn't a very compelling argument.
      - StanislavPetrov 8y ago
        Its exactly analagous. The government agencies want to implement this technology for the same reasons they do it in prisons - not for your benefit.
- zaksoup 8y ago
  This is such a fascinating and interesting question. I highly recommend reading the book 'Automating Inequality'[0] if you haven't already. My initial reaction to this question was 'I certainly would prefer groups of humans making collective decisions over an opaque, proprietary, algorithm'. But then I also think back to the latest internet firestorm of the woman calling the police on black barbecuers over charcoal (this happened a block from my house). Can we actually trust people en masse to make collaborative decisions that generally avoid bias? Definitely not. I think your comment may have changed my mind about the utility, objectivity, and overall value of amber alerts... [0] https://www.amazon.com/Automating-Inequality-High-Tech-Profile-Police-ebook/dp/B0739MF8VF/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1527011524&sr=8-1&keywords=automating+inequality https://www.amazon.com/Automating-Inequality-High-Tech-Profi...
  - eanzenberg 8y ago
    This is a case of "system worked as intended." Humans are fairly audit-able, can be seen, and public discourse can have its moment. Imagine if instead one of the thousands of street-cams was used to phone in the call to police. There would be no public discourse because of the invisibility of the actions.
  - steveeq1 8y ago
    Wait, I don't get it. Someone was using charcoal as opposed to, say, wood? So what? Is that a fire hazard or something?
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >If that system could co-opt camera feeds instead of human attention, we could get most (all?) of the benefits of the existing Amber Alert without having to burn civilian resources on it. Wouldn't that be a strict improvement over the current system? In my area amber alerts are usually along the lines of "the non custodial parent has the child when he shouldn't". Reducing the resource cost of (and therefore threshold to utilize) that system or similar systems is not something I can get behind. Finding and bothering specific people should be something that scales poorly enough that all the government organizations that engage in it are forced to pick and choose who they do it to. A low threshold is an invitation for abuse. Edit: and I'm wrong because why?
- gowld 8y ago
  Amber Alerts are opt-out, not mandatory.
  - donarb 8y ago
    They should be opt-in. When the feature was implemented on my phone I was not informed, the checkbox was already selected.
  - SpikedCola 8y ago
    At least in Canada, the new Amber-Alert-over-LTE system is mandatory, and cannot be opted out of: "People cannot opt out of this," said CRTC spokesperson Patricia Valladao. "There is a high importance that people — want it or not — receive these alerts."[0] [0] http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/emergency-alerts-system-phones-canada-1.4586367 http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/emergency-alerts-system-ph...
- godelski 8y ago
  Is it right to track the all online dealings of people that may be connected to terrorist organizations? Pretty reasonable people seem to think yes (Patriot Act). Is it right for the government to track all the online dealings of an average citizen? Most people think no. You may see a discrepancy here. That is why there is the saying "First they came for the fascists...". It is why when we talk about breaking encryption and backdoors discussion is centered around terrorists and pedos. Because those are universally hated groups. The problem comes with the fact that there is spill over. (See cases like San Bernardino shooting or the cop that is sitting in jail without sentencing because they know he has child porn on an encrypted drive. Btw, they use this same tactic to frame less controversial legal cases too) I think if backdoors/searches/whatever could only be applied to universally hated groups and not include a single random citizen than there would be almost unanimous agreement that we should do that (you are not violating a "non-criminal's" rights). The problem is that technology doesn't allow us to exclusively target those kinds of groups. As tech oriented people we understand that this spill over HAS to happen, but the average citizen (outside SV) does not understand the how it works, the scale, nor ramifications. I'd like to remind everyone that 1984 wasn't about the government watching everyone at all times, but having the ability to. I'm not sure why we call that a dystopian society but many people readily accept the use of this technology by the government. Sure, the police have the technological ability do facial recognition without Amazon, but technological capability is not the question. It is SHOULD THEY?
  - LoonyBalloony 8y ago
    > Pretty reasonable people seem to think yes (Patriot Act). Sure
- pyrale 8y ago
  > Wouldn't that be a strict improvement over the current system? No, that would be an implementation of a panopticon. You'll find a lot of interesting criticism of that concept, and of Bentham for trying to solve societal problems in an inhumane fashion.
decebalus1 8y ago
Lol. The fourth amendment went out the window with the Patriot act and the Freedom act. The fourth amendment does not matter anymore and nobody gives a shit. It's not like an 'important' amendment. I mean it's not the second amendment, otherwise there would be huge lobbying groups up in arms (no pun intended).
- cblades 8y ago
  This is an incredibly un-helpful comment.
  - plankers 8y ago
    This is an incredibly ironic comment.
- HashThis 8y ago
  > The fourth amendment does not matter anymore and nobody gives a shit. It does matter. Citizens do care. Just because they haven't taken action yet doesn't mean that they don't care or won't.
  - anigbrowl 8y ago
    (Lack of) actions speak louder than words.
    - LoonyBalloony 8y ago
      Better to do nothing then the wrong something. There is a non violent solution to this, I'm just not smart enough to know what that is.
      - cfadvan 8y ago
        Wait long enough and the violent solution will emerge on its own, like riots or the guillotine. Waiting and doing nothing while hoping for something ideal is a surefire way to live through the worst case scenario.
kolbe 8y ago
I honestly do not see how the 4th amendment's text obviously applies to surveillance, especially as it pertains to being identified in public. I don't even think it matters whether or not someone is a suspected criminal. It's not a search or seizure. And only in case law are there examples of the text being interpreted in favor of things like audio recordings needing a warrant. But this isn't one of those amendments whose text is clear on an issue like public facial recognition.
confounded 8y ago
> Everyone is a criminal. You commit multiple crimes a day if you're like most people. More importantly, pretty much everyone has a driver’s license or other government issued ID, and in most states, the police have access to your mugshot from that. The criminality can be figured out later. The problem is real time surveillance of the entire population.
- nighthawk1 8y ago
  As in ww2 Germany they said: give me the man and I’ll give you the crime.
  - sean2 8y ago
    "Show me the man and I’ll find you the crime." To be pedantic, it was Lavrentiy Beria[1] who is credited with that statement[2]; So it was a WW2 Russian Sentiment. Though Stalin-ism is also an example of a surveillance state government that was known for being unpleasant. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavrentiy_Beria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavrentiy_Beria [2] http://www.azquotes.com/quote/1137804 http://www.azquotes.com/quote/1137804
    - nighthawk1 8y ago
      Thanks, learned something new today.
andrewla 8y ago
I don't see anything in the post you're responding to that would constitute a search (or seizure), but simply an identification, which by itself does not meet the requirements for probable cause, and is unlikely to meet the reasonableness criteria. By analogy, if a police officer has an excellent facial memory and they recognize someone, can they use their memory to influence their actions towards the person?
chisleu 8y ago
known criminal != criminal Yes, I likely commit a couple felonies a day unknowingly. Still, I've never been arrested and I don't have a mug shot. It's not inappropriate for law enforcement to automate processes that are valid and legal for them to do. They are allowed to study the mug shots but it's not reasonable for them to memorize every mugshot. However, automating their recollection via machine learning is reasonable.

fixermark 8y ago

Reasonable people can disagree on the definition of "unreasonable," however. Is it "unreasonable" for the Amber Alert system to co-opt the eyes and attention of ten thousand citizens around a kidnapped child? Hard to say. Most people seem to think 'no.' If that system could co-opt camera feeds instead of human attention, we could get most (all?) of the benefits of the existing Amber Alert without having to burn civilian resources on it. Wouldn't that be a strict improvement over the current system?

yayana 8y ago
And why stop at Amber alerts once the resources to perform the search no longer complain or question oddities about the alert?
blitmap 8y ago
I definitely feel like we're missing positive opportunities for mass surveillance. Things like being able to recognize someone in cardiac arrest, or who is at risk for a stroke. Someday mass surveillance will help as much as it hurts society.
- doorbumper 8y ago
  What's interesting is that anyone implementing mass surveillance could care less about your proposed benefits.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    Or exactly the opposite - it may be their primary motivation, with the negatives ending up being caused by others co-opting the system.
  - Buttons840 8y ago
    I believe technology will ever erode privacy, and that the best we can hope for is to make sure the transparency goes both ways. The government should become more transparent to the people as the people become more transparent to the government. Like you though, I'm afraid we'll end up with a vast and reliable surveillance system which police will be able to use, while the police themselves are still "struggling" to get their body cams to work reliably.
  - megy 8y ago
    > could care less about your proposed benefits. Could they? Oh well, that is at least something then.
- StanislavPetrov 8y ago
  Many prisons have blanket surveillance systems. I suggest you ask the prisoners how beneficial they find it, and extrapolate.
  - fixermark 8y ago
    "Prison has X, therefore X is bad" isn't a very compelling argument.
    - StanislavPetrov 8y ago
      Its exactly analagous. The government agencies want to implement this technology for the same reasons they do it in prisons - not for your benefit.
zaksoup 8y ago
This is such a fascinating and interesting question. I highly recommend reading the book 'Automating Inequality'[0] if you haven't already. My initial reaction to this question was 'I certainly would prefer groups of humans making collective decisions over an opaque, proprietary, algorithm'. But then I also think back to the latest internet firestorm of the woman calling the police on black barbecuers over charcoal (this happened a block from my house). Can we actually trust people en masse to make collaborative decisions that generally avoid bias? Definitely not. I think your comment may have changed my mind about the utility, objectivity, and overall value of amber alerts... [0] https://www.amazon.com/Automating-Inequality-High-Tech-Profile-Police-ebook/dp/B0739MF8VF/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1527011524&sr=8-1&keywords=automating+inequality https://www.amazon.com/Automating-Inequality-High-Tech-Profi...
- eanzenberg 8y ago
  This is a case of "system worked as intended." Humans are fairly audit-able, can be seen, and public discourse can have its moment. Imagine if instead one of the thousands of street-cams was used to phone in the call to police. There would be no public discourse because of the invisibility of the actions.
- steveeq1 8y ago
  Wait, I don't get it. Someone was using charcoal as opposed to, say, wood? So what? Is that a fire hazard or something?
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>If that system could co-opt camera feeds instead of human attention, we could get most (all?) of the benefits of the existing Amber Alert without having to burn civilian resources on it. Wouldn't that be a strict improvement over the current system? In my area amber alerts are usually along the lines of "the non custodial parent has the child when he shouldn't". Reducing the resource cost of (and therefore threshold to utilize) that system or similar systems is not something I can get behind. Finding and bothering specific people should be something that scales poorly enough that all the government organizations that engage in it are forced to pick and choose who they do it to. A low threshold is an invitation for abuse. Edit: and I'm wrong because why?
gowld 8y ago
Amber Alerts are opt-out, not mandatory.
- donarb 8y ago
  They should be opt-in. When the feature was implemented on my phone I was not informed, the checkbox was already selected.
- SpikedCola 8y ago
  At least in Canada, the new Amber-Alert-over-LTE system is mandatory, and cannot be opted out of: "People cannot opt out of this," said CRTC spokesperson Patricia Valladao. "There is a high importance that people — want it or not — receive these alerts."[0] [0] http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/emergency-alerts-system-phones-canada-1.4586367 http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/emergency-alerts-system-ph...
godelski 8y ago
Is it right to track the all online dealings of people that may be connected to terrorist organizations? Pretty reasonable people seem to think yes (Patriot Act). Is it right for the government to track all the online dealings of an average citizen? Most people think no. You may see a discrepancy here. That is why there is the saying "First they came for the fascists...". It is why when we talk about breaking encryption and backdoors discussion is centered around terrorists and pedos. Because those are universally hated groups. The problem comes with the fact that there is spill over. (See cases like San Bernardino shooting or the cop that is sitting in jail without sentencing because they know he has child porn on an encrypted drive. Btw, they use this same tactic to frame less controversial legal cases too) I think if backdoors/searches/whatever could only be applied to universally hated groups and not include a single random citizen than there would be almost unanimous agreement that we should do that (you are not violating a "non-criminal's" rights). The problem is that technology doesn't allow us to exclusively target those kinds of groups. As tech oriented people we understand that this spill over HAS to happen, but the average citizen (outside SV) does not understand the how it works, the scale, nor ramifications. I'd like to remind everyone that 1984 wasn't about the government watching everyone at all times, but having the ability to. I'm not sure why we call that a dystopian society but many people readily accept the use of this technology by the government. Sure, the police have the technological ability do facial recognition without Amazon, but technological capability is not the question. It is SHOULD THEY?
- LoonyBalloony 8y ago
  > Pretty reasonable people seem to think yes (Patriot Act). Sure
pyrale 8y ago
> Wouldn't that be a strict improvement over the current system? No, that would be an implementation of a panopticon. You'll find a lot of interesting criticism of that concept, and of Bentham for trying to solve societal problems in an inhumane fashion.

decebalus1 8y ago

Lol. The fourth amendment went out the window with the Patriot act and the Freedom act. The fourth amendment does not matter anymore and nobody gives a shit. It's not like an 'important' amendment. I mean it's not the second amendment, otherwise there would be huge lobbying groups up in arms (no pun intended).

cblades 8y ago
This is an incredibly un-helpful comment.
- plankers 8y ago
  This is an incredibly ironic comment.
HashThis 8y ago
> The fourth amendment does not matter anymore and nobody gives a shit. It does matter. Citizens do care. Just because they haven't taken action yet doesn't mean that they don't care or won't.
- anigbrowl 8y ago
  (Lack of) actions speak louder than words.
  - LoonyBalloony 8y ago
    Better to do nothing then the wrong something. There is a non violent solution to this, I'm just not smart enough to know what that is.
    - cfadvan 8y ago
      Wait long enough and the violent solution will emerge on its own, like riots or the guillotine. Waiting and doing nothing while hoping for something ideal is a surefire way to live through the worst case scenario.

kolbe 8y ago

I honestly do not see how the 4th amendment's text obviously applies to surveillance, especially as it pertains to being identified in public. I don't even think it matters whether or not someone is a suspected criminal. It's not a search or seizure. And only in case law are there examples of the text being interpreted in favor of things like audio recordings needing a warrant. But this isn't one of those amendments whose text is clear on an issue like public facial recognition.

confounded 8y ago

> Everyone is a criminal. You commit multiple crimes a day if you're like most people. More importantly, pretty much everyone has a driver’s license or other government issued ID, and in most states, the police have access to your mugshot from that. The criminality can be figured out later. The problem is real time surveillance of the entire population.

nighthawk1 8y ago
As in ww2 Germany they said: give me the man and I’ll give you the crime.
- sean2 8y ago
  "Show me the man and I’ll find you the crime." To be pedantic, it was Lavrentiy Beria[1] who is credited with that statement[2]; So it was a WW2 Russian Sentiment. Though Stalin-ism is also an example of a surveillance state government that was known for being unpleasant. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavrentiy_Beria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavrentiy_Beria [2] http://www.azquotes.com/quote/1137804 http://www.azquotes.com/quote/1137804
  - nighthawk1 8y ago
    Thanks, learned something new today.

andrewla 8y ago

I don't see anything in the post you're responding to that would constitute a search (or seizure), but simply an identification, which by itself does not meet the requirements for probable cause, and is unlikely to meet the reasonableness criteria. By analogy, if a police officer has an excellent facial memory and they recognize someone, can they use their memory to influence their actions towards the person?

chisleu 8y ago

known criminal != criminal Yes, I likely commit a couple felonies a day unknowingly. Still, I've never been arrested and I don't have a mug shot. It's not inappropriate for law enforcement to automate processes that are valid and legal for them to do. They are allowed to study the mug shots but it's not reasonable for them to memorize every mugshot. However, automating their recollection via machine learning is reasonable.