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Taking as an axiom that God exists and loves us, we can deduce that God wants us to be free because you do not want someone you really love to be your slave. If

Taking as an axiom that God exists and loves us, we can deduce that God wants us to be free because you do not want someone you really love to be your slave. If there was a way to prove the existence of God, we would not be free to believe or not. As a result, if "God exists and loves us", there is no way we can prove he exists.

Drakim 8y ago
> Taking as an axiom that God exists and loves us I think the axioms you need for this kind of argument is that: is God exists, God is human-like, and God loves us. Why would a cosmic being care more about humans than bacteria? Why would he value things like freedom over slavery? Why would he care if we believed in him or not? Those are entirely human qualities and concepts.
- reacweb 8y ago
  You care about the things you love. The single "human-like" trait of my reasoning is to be able to love. I do not like the "human-like" term because it involves so many negative connotations. If God is perfect, I can not imagine him as "human-like" ;-).
  - Drakim 8y ago
    Human-likeness is not a very popular trait to attribute to a higher power because it shows the underlying anthropomorphism at work. There is no reason to think that if there is some sort of higher power, it has an any bigger interest in humans than it has with atoms or planets. To assume that is an assumption, which shouldn't be hidden.
- malcolmwhite 8y ago
  > Those are entirely human qualities and concepts. These are entirely human concepts only if you've already accepted some different axioms of your own. The Christian argument is that valuing freedom over slavery, and wanting worship, are divine qualities and concepts. And humans share those things because they were made after God's likeness for the sake of being loved (and more importantly, loving God in return).
nkoren 8y ago
So if I exist and I love my cat, there is no way my cat can prove I exist? If this is false, then I think some further axioms may be needed to differentiate the two scenarios.
- reacweb 8y ago
  The difference between scenarios is that God is God, the one that may have created everything including your cat or at least (the other extreme of God definition for believers) the "thing" that differentiates love from a chemical reaction.

Drakim 8y ago

> Taking as an axiom that God exists and loves us I think the axioms you need for this kind of argument is that: is God exists, God is human-like, and God loves us. Why would a cosmic being care more about humans than bacteria? Why would he value things like freedom over slavery? Why would he care if we believed in him or not? Those are entirely human qualities and concepts.

reacweb 8y ago
You care about the things you love. The single "human-like" trait of my reasoning is to be able to love. I do not like the "human-like" term because it involves so many negative connotations. If God is perfect, I can not imagine him as "human-like" ;-).
- Drakim 8y ago
  Human-likeness is not a very popular trait to attribute to a higher power because it shows the underlying anthropomorphism at work. There is no reason to think that if there is some sort of higher power, it has an any bigger interest in humans than it has with atoms or planets. To assume that is an assumption, which shouldn't be hidden.
malcolmwhite 8y ago
> Those are entirely human qualities and concepts. These are entirely human concepts only if you've already accepted some different axioms of your own. The Christian argument is that valuing freedom over slavery, and wanting worship, are divine qualities and concepts. And humans share those things because they were made after God's likeness for the sake of being loved (and more importantly, loving God in return).

nkoren 8y ago

So if I exist and I love my cat, there is no way my cat can prove I exist? If this is false, then I think some further axioms may be needed to differentiate the two scenarios.

reacweb 8y ago
The difference between scenarios is that God is God, the one that may have created everything including your cat or at least (the other extreme of God definition for believers) the "thing" that differentiates love from a chemical reaction.