4 ms·

Certainly no one who had any power to stop it blew the whistle. "Move fast and break things", including user privacy settings

wiz21c 8y ago
I wonder how many engineers are trained, even a bit, in ethics...
- todd10203040 8y ago
  At least in Canada, to be labeled as a professional engineer, even if it's a computer engineer, there are mandatory codes of ethics you have to follow. I had an ethics class during my time at college for their computer engineering technologist, and you definitely do get taught these things. In Ontario, we have a group called OACETT, if you want to label yourself as a certified engineer, you have to be a part of this organization and vow to follow certain codes of ethics. The only problem is, software developers don't count, and many people who are hired to write code, myself included, are never required to have this certification. I wish we were treated more like electrical engineers, structural engineers, etc, but for some reason code still isn't considered to be a safety risk to humans like a bridge or wiring in a house is.
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    You'd think somewhere around the point people started controlling nuclear reactors with software that software development should've fallen into this category. Which is long before now, where we control everybody's cars with software.
- mike-cardwell 8y ago
  What does ethics training even look like? I have a set of ethics, probably mostly derived from my upbringing and environment. Would a module and a few lectures at college change my ethics? I don't see how it could...
  - TAForObvReasons 8y ago
    An ethics program consists, at the very least, of: 1) a shared understanding of what is definitely acceptable and what is definitely unacceptable (e.g. accepting a $1000 dinner from a vendor in a location with plenty of $100 or $50 dinner arrangements is unacceptable in many industries). Courses and training will at least define the lines for the industry in question. In finance, for example, ethics training includes issues like soft-dollar arrangements. 2) a set of procedures for inquiring about and responding to ethical quandaries. Many companies in the post Sarbanes-Oxley era have a chief ethics officer and a clear reporting chain specifically to define and standardize company ethics and to ensure that lower-level employees can make informed decisions.
  - bigger_cheese 8y ago
    I studied (non-software) engineering in Australia which had a mandatory ethics course. The lectures focused around: - Regulatory compliance (codes of practice, state laws etc) - Legal responsibilities (I.e liability, disclosure, whistleblowing etc) We were given different case studies to research each week and we spent time in class Tutorial groups discussing the case studies the next week: I.e. What ethical issues were involved and what an engineer's responsibilities could entail in each case. The Tutor mostly asked leading questions and class argued about possible responses. Some particular cases I remember we discussed were: Genetic Modification, Challenger Space Shuttle Explosion, CFC's, Asbestos and Kansas City Walkway Collapse.
  - ionised 8y ago
    Considering ethics as a field of study has been a thing since at least Ancient Greece I would say yes, it probably would have some effect on you.
- TAForObvReasons 8y ago
  there are two levels of ethics: personal ethics (what do you personally find acceptable) and professional ethics (what does the industry find unacceptable). The former varies wildly from individual to individual. The problem is that the industry has no standard professional ethics, hence no IT workers would have been trained in ethics. Other engineering fields have actual ethics training and some of them integrate that into licensure.

wiz21c 8y ago

I wonder how many engineers are trained, even a bit, in ethics...

todd10203040 8y ago
At least in Canada, to be labeled as a professional engineer, even if it's a computer engineer, there are mandatory codes of ethics you have to follow. I had an ethics class during my time at college for their computer engineering technologist, and you definitely do get taught these things. In Ontario, we have a group called OACETT, if you want to label yourself as a certified engineer, you have to be a part of this organization and vow to follow certain codes of ethics. The only problem is, software developers don't count, and many people who are hired to write code, myself included, are never required to have this certification. I wish we were treated more like electrical engineers, structural engineers, etc, but for some reason code still isn't considered to be a safety risk to humans like a bridge or wiring in a house is.
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
  You'd think somewhere around the point people started controlling nuclear reactors with software that software development should've fallen into this category. Which is long before now, where we control everybody's cars with software.
mike-cardwell 8y ago
What does ethics training even look like? I have a set of ethics, probably mostly derived from my upbringing and environment. Would a module and a few lectures at college change my ethics? I don't see how it could...
- TAForObvReasons 8y ago
  An ethics program consists, at the very least, of: 1) a shared understanding of what is definitely acceptable and what is definitely unacceptable (e.g. accepting a $1000 dinner from a vendor in a location with plenty of $100 or $50 dinner arrangements is unacceptable in many industries). Courses and training will at least define the lines for the industry in question. In finance, for example, ethics training includes issues like soft-dollar arrangements. 2) a set of procedures for inquiring about and responding to ethical quandaries. Many companies in the post Sarbanes-Oxley era have a chief ethics officer and a clear reporting chain specifically to define and standardize company ethics and to ensure that lower-level employees can make informed decisions.
- bigger_cheese 8y ago
  I studied (non-software) engineering in Australia which had a mandatory ethics course. The lectures focused around: - Regulatory compliance (codes of practice, state laws etc) - Legal responsibilities (I.e liability, disclosure, whistleblowing etc) We were given different case studies to research each week and we spent time in class Tutorial groups discussing the case studies the next week: I.e. What ethical issues were involved and what an engineer's responsibilities could entail in each case. The Tutor mostly asked leading questions and class argued about possible responses. Some particular cases I remember we discussed were: Genetic Modification, Challenger Space Shuttle Explosion, CFC's, Asbestos and Kansas City Walkway Collapse.
- ionised 8y ago
  Considering ethics as a field of study has been a thing since at least Ancient Greece I would say yes, it probably would have some effect on you.
TAForObvReasons 8y ago
there are two levels of ethics: personal ethics (what do you personally find acceptable) and professional ethics (what does the industry find unacceptable). The former varies wildly from individual to individual. The problem is that the industry has no standard professional ethics, hence no IT workers would have been trained in ethics. Other engineering fields have actual ethics training and some of them integrate that into licensure.