8 ms·

The headline is shocking, but 1,000 deaths leading to organ donations spread across the entire united states over a year is relatively small. It's interesting

The headline is shocking, but 1,000 deaths leading to organ donations spread across the entire united states over a year is relatively small. It's interesting that drug deaths can so easily lead us into a moral panic in a way that obesity deaths do not.

sevensor 8y ago
Obesity? Let's not forget the primary source of donor organs: participants in car wrecks. No moral panic there, either.
- xfitm3 8y ago
  According to the CDC accidents are the fourth leading cause of death. I looked but couldn't find a source to cross reference which causes disqualify a organ donor. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm
  - dionidium 8y ago
    It's not merely about death. You need to die young and healthy for your organs to be worth anything. That's why car crashes are a particularly useful source.
  - Retric 8y ago
    You don't want to transplant from someone that died from cancer or AIDS etc. You want healthy organs and they tend to come from accidents.
    - Vinnl 8y ago
      There's often healthy organs and tissue left that can still be used for donation, even in some cases of cancer. Dutch source: https://www.transplantatiestichting.nl/donor-worden/wie-kan-donor-worden/orgaandonatie-bij-ziekte-medicijngebruik https://www.transplantatiestichting.nl/donor-worden/wie-kan-...
      - Retric 8y ago
        Organ transplant recipients are already at vastly increased risks for dying of cancer. If the only other option is death then sure take risks, but it's not a good idea. https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/856854 https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/856854
        Vinnl 8y ago
        Often the only other option is death.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- emodendroket 8y ago
  We've repeatedly intervened to make cars and roadways safer, crack down on drunk driving, and the like, so I'm not sure the idea that nobody cares about driving deaths is right.
- Vinnl 8y ago
  I'm not sure what it's like in other countries, but in the Netherlands, patients have to die in a hospital to be eligible for an organ transplant (not for tissue transplants), so I don't think car accidents are a major source.
  - emodendroket 8y ago
    Is organ donation in the Netherlands also opt-in?
    - Vinnl 8y ago
      Interestingly, we're at a transition point at the moment. A law was passed last year that changes it to opt-out. However, it still has to come into effect. Additionally, they're currently in the process of abolishing a law that allows citizens to initiate referendums, but it is currently looking like a referendum about the law changing it to opt-out is still going to make it in time to be held before it is abolished. In other words, the change to opt-out might still be put on hold before it comes into effect.
      - emodendroket 8y ago
        That is interesting... I'm asking because it seems to me like the supply of organs, which is already strained in the US (well, maybe less now, but usually), would be too low under the system you're describing.
        Vinnl 8y ago
        It's usually too low in an opt-out system as well, just less so than in an opt-in system :) But yeah, it's pretty much without a doubt that an opt-out system leads to more donors. The debate is mostly about whether that's worth the restricting people's self-determination, and to what extent an opt-out system would be restricting it in the first place.
- SilasX 8y ago
  No, but interestingly enough, there are people who freak out that self-driving cars will thin out the organ supply: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2016/12/self_driving_cars_will_exacerbate_organ_shortages.html http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2016/1... (To avoid a rehash of the Facebook flamewar I already had about this: Yes, you can be correct on the facts, but still promote a flawed narrative; that's what's happening here.)
- mywittyname 8y ago
  Motorcycles are called "donorcycles" in ERs for good reason.
isoprophlex 8y ago
Moral panic from obesity would be highly irrational. ~30% (74% when counting obese including overweight) of USA adults was obese in 2007.[0] This would be equivalent to admitting, society wide, that we ourselves are generally too fat. Drug (ab)users are much more rare, and feel as 'the other' in a sensational narrative. easy to see as outrageous, gross or hateful; good for a moral shock effect [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States
- jonnybgood 8y ago
  That’s 74% overweight, not obese.
  - isoprophlex 8y ago
    Thank you! I badly misread the title of that graph. Edited my faulty percentage. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USObesityRate1960-2004.svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USObesityRate1960-2004....
- emodendroket 8y ago
  I think there does to tend to be a moral tinge to coverage of it, though.
Someone1234 8y ago
> It's interesting that drug deaths can so easily lead us into a moral panic in a way that obesity deaths do not. Because the obese likely are net contributors[0][1]. They work for their most productive period, and often die "young" which just so happens to be right before they enter retirement. If you look at total cost over a lifetime a "healthy" person is far more expensive than an obese one because so much of the healthcare cost is back-loaded into older ages (drug costs, hip replacements, alzheimer's, additional cancers, heart surgeries, etc). And while the last few years of an obese individual's life is expensive too, we're talking about tens of years of similar level care for a "healthy" older person. Not to mention that most pension systems are substantially under-funded for current life expectancy. The obesity epidemic might save the pension system from complete collapse. None of these are moral arguments. I'm not going to defend obesity. But it is worth considering that if the "epidemic" continues the results likely won't worsen healthcare or pensions, but may in fact reduce total costs. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/health/05iht-obese.1.9748884.html https://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/health/05iht-obese.1.9748... [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/22/alcohol-obesity-and-smoking-do-not-cost-health-care-systems-money/#7ca5b0b964aa https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/22/alcohol-...
- lev99 8y ago
  > Because the obese likely are net contributors While you did plenty to explain the economics of obesity in our health care system, you did not do enough to tie the economics of obesity back to morality. Sure obesity is probably a net contributor, but is that important when deciding what is moral? My gut says no, but I haven't formed an educated opinion on the matter.
  - emodendroket 8y ago
    I don't think it makes any sense to talk about obesity as "moral" or "immoral."
  - Someone1234 8y ago
    I'd argue, in spite of the name a "moral panic" isn't specifically about morals. That's why I didn't focus on the moral angle. Moral panics are obscure "bads" that a large number of people suddenly take interest in. Like violent video games or swine flu. Swine flu for example isn't immoral (or moral) it simply just is, but it still presented a moral panic when people were panicking about it. Obesity could become a moral panic but it hasn't yet because experts often squash the issue with facts, at least when applied to a larger society (nobody is arguing it is good for an individual or for family members of an individual, we're talking society scale).
simonsarris 8y ago
Obesity is so astonishingly bad that it's insane everyone just glosses over it. All homicides, suicides, and drug overdoses in the US combined have nothing on obesity.[1][2] Somehow, there's no getting people to understand the scope of it. They'd rather attack the healthcare system and its costs, which are easily explained by use[3], than do some serious national soul searching on obesity. [1] https://imgur.com/a/YV2wBe8 https://imgur.com/a/YV2wBe8 - data from an article I was writing. [2] https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2017/p1003-vs-cancer-obesity.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2017/p1003-vs-cancer-obes... > Cancers Associated with Overweight and Obesity Make up 40 percent of Cancers Diagnosed in the United States etc. [3] https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2016/09/25/high-us-health-care-spending-is-quite-well-explained-by-its-high-material-standard-of-living/ https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2016/09/25/high...
- emodendroket 8y ago
  It might be because most interventions have dismal success rates.
  - TACIXAT 8y ago
    I would be thrilled for some regulatory interventions. We can start with getting added sugar out of just about every product. Changing the rhetoric about caffeine would be nice too. Everyone talks about it as if it is a given that we use it, when in reality they are reliant on it. We really let the big companies run over us in terms of what we eat.
    - emodendroket 8y ago
      Changing the food on supermarket shelves could help but I meant "intervention" in the sense of things you can do with someone who is already obese -- few seem to be very successful in keeping weight off.
    - nostrademons 8y ago
      You could get surprisingly far on obesity simply by removing agricultural subsidies. If corn & soybeans cost their actual market price, we wouldn't be putting high-fructose corn syrup and partially hydrogenated soybean oil into every single processed food made. No additional regulations needed, no additional taxes, and most of the impact comes out of Monsanto's bottom line rather than individual farmers - just let the damn free market do its job and stop with a massive corporate welfare program. Then again, good luck. The farm lobby is strong, the ag-tech lobby is even stronger, and removing handouts to America's heartland has proven politically unpopular in the past.
liveoneggs 8y ago
obesity ruins useful organs to use in transplants
emodendroket 8y ago
How many people do you know who died in their mid-twenties of obesity? Of these, how many spent their last years engaged in behavior that alienated them from their friends and family, or turned to crime, because of their obesity? Do you see a lot of discarded needles from diabetes testing kits in the park? The two things aren't comparable.
- khazhoux 8y ago
  Genuine question: have you ever lived or spent time in non-coastal USA? The amount of obesity is shocking. All across the country, you'll find body shapes you did not think were possible.
  - emodendroket 8y ago
    I am a lifelong suburbanite and the suburbs have lots more obese people than the cities. But let's say I'd be shocked if I visited San Antonio. I'm not seeing how that's a refutation of what I said.
  - tedunangst 8y ago
    As someone who apparently has visited those areas, can you answer emodenroket's questions for us?
eezurr 8y ago
FTA: >In the first study to link organ donation to drug abuse, researchers found that organs donated by overdose victims jumped from 59 in the year 2000 to 1,029 by 2016. >This is almost as many as the 1,356 organs donated as a result of deaths from car crashes, the biggest source of organ donations. Comparing organ donation from deaths, it's not very small at all.

sevensor 8y ago

Obesity? Let's not forget the primary source of donor organs: participants in car wrecks. No moral panic there, either.

xfitm3 8y ago
According to the CDC accidents are the fourth leading cause of death. I looked but couldn't find a source to cross reference which causes disqualify a organ donor. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm
- dionidium 8y ago
  It's not merely about death. You need to die young and healthy for your organs to be worth anything. That's why car crashes are a particularly useful source.
- Retric 8y ago
  You don't want to transplant from someone that died from cancer or AIDS etc. You want healthy organs and they tend to come from accidents.
  - Vinnl 8y ago
    There's often healthy organs and tissue left that can still be used for donation, even in some cases of cancer. Dutch source: https://www.transplantatiestichting.nl/donor-worden/wie-kan-donor-worden/orgaandonatie-bij-ziekte-medicijngebruik https://www.transplantatiestichting.nl/donor-worden/wie-kan-...
    - Retric 8y ago
      Organ transplant recipients are already at vastly increased risks for dying of cancer. If the only other option is death then sure take risks, but it's not a good idea. https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/856854 https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/856854
      - Vinnl 8y ago
        Often the only other option is death.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
emodendroket 8y ago
We've repeatedly intervened to make cars and roadways safer, crack down on drunk driving, and the like, so I'm not sure the idea that nobody cares about driving deaths is right.
Vinnl 8y ago
I'm not sure what it's like in other countries, but in the Netherlands, patients have to die in a hospital to be eligible for an organ transplant (not for tissue transplants), so I don't think car accidents are a major source.
- emodendroket 8y ago
  Is organ donation in the Netherlands also opt-in?
  - Vinnl 8y ago
    Interestingly, we're at a transition point at the moment. A law was passed last year that changes it to opt-out. However, it still has to come into effect. Additionally, they're currently in the process of abolishing a law that allows citizens to initiate referendums, but it is currently looking like a referendum about the law changing it to opt-out is still going to make it in time to be held before it is abolished. In other words, the change to opt-out might still be put on hold before it comes into effect.
    - emodendroket 8y ago
      That is interesting... I'm asking because it seems to me like the supply of organs, which is already strained in the US (well, maybe less now, but usually), would be too low under the system you're describing.
      - Vinnl 8y ago
        It's usually too low in an opt-out system as well, just less so than in an opt-in system :) But yeah, it's pretty much without a doubt that an opt-out system leads to more donors. The debate is mostly about whether that's worth the restricting people's self-determination, and to what extent an opt-out system would be restricting it in the first place.
SilasX 8y ago
No, but interestingly enough, there are people who freak out that self-driving cars will thin out the organ supply: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2016/12/self_driving_cars_will_exacerbate_organ_shortages.html http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2016/1... (To avoid a rehash of the Facebook flamewar I already had about this: Yes, you can be correct on the facts, but still promote a flawed narrative; that's what's happening here.)
mywittyname 8y ago
Motorcycles are called "donorcycles" in ERs for good reason.

isoprophlex 8y ago

Moral panic from obesity would be highly irrational. ~30% (74% when counting obese including overweight) of USA adults was obese in 2007.[0] This would be equivalent to admitting, society wide, that we ourselves are generally too fat. Drug (ab)users are much more rare, and feel as 'the other' in a sensational narrative. easy to see as outrageous, gross or hateful; good for a moral shock effect [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States

jonnybgood 8y ago
That’s 74% overweight, not obese.
- isoprophlex 8y ago
  Thank you! I badly misread the title of that graph. Edited my faulty percentage. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USObesityRate1960-2004.svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USObesityRate1960-2004....
emodendroket 8y ago
I think there does to tend to be a moral tinge to coverage of it, though.

Someone1234 8y ago

> It's interesting that drug deaths can so easily lead us into a moral panic in a way that obesity deaths do not. Because the obese likely are net contributors[0][1]. They work for their most productive period, and often die "young" which just so happens to be right before they enter retirement. If you look at total cost over a lifetime a "healthy" person is far more expensive than an obese one because so much of the healthcare cost is back-loaded into older ages (drug costs, hip replacements, alzheimer's, additional cancers, heart surgeries, etc). And while the last few years of an obese individual's life is expensive too, we're talking about tens of years of similar level care for a "healthy" older person. Not to mention that most pension systems are substantially under-funded for current life expectancy. The obesity epidemic might save the pension system from complete collapse. None of these are moral arguments. I'm not going to defend obesity. But it is worth considering that if the "epidemic" continues the results likely won't worsen healthcare or pensions, but may in fact reduce total costs. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/health/05iht-obese.1.9748884.html https://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/health/05iht-obese.1.9748... [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/22/alcohol-obesity-and-smoking-do-not-cost-health-care-systems-money/#7ca5b0b964aa https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/22/alcohol-...

lev99 8y ago
> Because the obese likely are net contributors While you did plenty to explain the economics of obesity in our health care system, you did not do enough to tie the economics of obesity back to morality. Sure obesity is probably a net contributor, but is that important when deciding what is moral? My gut says no, but I haven't formed an educated opinion on the matter.
- emodendroket 8y ago
  I don't think it makes any sense to talk about obesity as "moral" or "immoral."
- Someone1234 8y ago
  I'd argue, in spite of the name a "moral panic" isn't specifically about morals. That's why I didn't focus on the moral angle. Moral panics are obscure "bads" that a large number of people suddenly take interest in. Like violent video games or swine flu. Swine flu for example isn't immoral (or moral) it simply just is, but it still presented a moral panic when people were panicking about it. Obesity could become a moral panic but it hasn't yet because experts often squash the issue with facts, at least when applied to a larger society (nobody is arguing it is good for an individual or for family members of an individual, we're talking society scale).

simonsarris 8y ago

Obesity is so astonishingly bad that it's insane everyone just glosses over it. All homicides, suicides, and drug overdoses in the US combined have nothing on obesity.[1][2] Somehow, there's no getting people to understand the scope of it. They'd rather attack the healthcare system and its costs, which are easily explained by use[3], than do some serious national soul searching on obesity. [1] https://imgur.com/a/YV2wBe8 https://imgur.com/a/YV2wBe8 - data from an article I was writing. [2] https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2017/p1003-vs-cancer-obesity.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2017/p1003-vs-cancer-obes... > Cancers Associated with Overweight and Obesity Make up 40 percent of Cancers Diagnosed in the United States etc. [3] https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2016/09/25/high-us-health-care-spending-is-quite-well-explained-by-its-high-material-standard-of-living/ https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2016/09/25/high...

emodendroket 8y ago
It might be because most interventions have dismal success rates.
- TACIXAT 8y ago
  I would be thrilled for some regulatory interventions. We can start with getting added sugar out of just about every product. Changing the rhetoric about caffeine would be nice too. Everyone talks about it as if it is a given that we use it, when in reality they are reliant on it. We really let the big companies run over us in terms of what we eat.
  - emodendroket 8y ago
    Changing the food on supermarket shelves could help but I meant "intervention" in the sense of things you can do with someone who is already obese -- few seem to be very successful in keeping weight off.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    You could get surprisingly far on obesity simply by removing agricultural subsidies. If corn & soybeans cost their actual market price, we wouldn't be putting high-fructose corn syrup and partially hydrogenated soybean oil into every single processed food made. No additional regulations needed, no additional taxes, and most of the impact comes out of Monsanto's bottom line rather than individual farmers - just let the damn free market do its job and stop with a massive corporate welfare program. Then again, good luck. The farm lobby is strong, the ag-tech lobby is even stronger, and removing handouts to America's heartland has proven politically unpopular in the past.

liveoneggs 8y ago

obesity ruins useful organs to use in transplants

emodendroket 8y ago

How many people do you know who died in their mid-twenties of obesity? Of these, how many spent their last years engaged in behavior that alienated them from their friends and family, or turned to crime, because of their obesity? Do you see a lot of discarded needles from diabetes testing kits in the park? The two things aren't comparable.

khazhoux 8y ago
Genuine question: have you ever lived or spent time in non-coastal USA? The amount of obesity is shocking. All across the country, you'll find body shapes you did not think were possible.
- emodendroket 8y ago
  I am a lifelong suburbanite and the suburbs have lots more obese people than the cities. But let's say I'd be shocked if I visited San Antonio. I'm not seeing how that's a refutation of what I said.
- tedunangst 8y ago
  As someone who apparently has visited those areas, can you answer emodenroket's questions for us?

eezurr 8y ago

FTA: >In the first study to link organ donation to drug abuse, researchers found that organs donated by overdose victims jumped from 59 in the year 2000 to 1,029 by 2016. >This is almost as many as the 1,356 organs donated as a result of deaths from car crashes, the biggest source of organ donations. Comparing organ donation from deaths, it's not very small at all.