6 ms·

I found this line very interesting: > but primarily in children who experienced 'clean' childhoods in the first year of life, without much interaction with oth

I found this line very interesting: > but primarily in children who experienced 'clean' childhoods in the first year of life, without much interaction with other infants or older children. And: > Professor Greaves suggests childhood ALL is a paradox of progress in modern societies – with lack of microbial exposure early in life resulting in immune system malfunction. Reminds me of childhood asthma which some have claimed is also caused by under-exposure to contaminants in the air in early childhood.

baxtr 8y ago
Yes, but later they say: Population studies in people together with animal experiments suggest this second genetic ‘hit’ can be triggered by infection – probably by a range of common viruses and bacteria. In one unique cluster of cases investigated by Professor Greaves and colleagues in Milan, all cases were all infected with a flu virus.
- btilly 8y ago
  The picture in the article says that the following is needed. 1. A mutation. 2. A clean childhood that does not build your immune system. 3. A follow-up mutation that can be caused by infection. So the clean childhood and infection as part of the picture are not contradictory to each other.
bazooka_penguin 8y ago
Makes you wonder how many diseases and bacteria we specifically evolved alongside
londons_explore 8y ago
I have yet to see compelling evidence that separates the effects of "clean environments" and "environments with lots of cleaning agents used". Are there any studies which investigate, for example, the difference between mechanical cleaning of an environment with a pressure washer and deionised water, vs chemical cleaning with household cleaners?
- tomtheelder 8y ago
  I think the article actually sort of addresses this, but only in passing and indirectly by mentioning that what they actually mean is growing up without breastefeeding and with limited exposure to other children. When they say clean, they don't really mean how well scrubbed the floors and counters are. When these sorts of studies are coming out, they are very rarely talking about the cleanliness of the house, more so the lifestyle and habits of the occupants. Now there could well be a correlation between households that clean with cleaning agents and those that limit interaction and breastfeeding, but I do think it's very unlikely that that is what is going on.
- notabee 8y ago
  There was a study recently that (in a mouse model) linked residual soap from baby wipes to food allergy development. https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2018/april/food-allergy-is-linked-to-skin-exposure-and-genetics/ https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2018/april/food-allerg...
stevenwoo 8y ago
There is probable correlation between home distance from highways and rates of childhood asthma (though my mental guess is that may be confounded by mostly poorer people living close to the highway or having a high traffic road built next to them). I just picked one article for reference. Of course both methods could be responsible in some way. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/traffic-pollution-and-asthma/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/traffic-pollution...
r00fus 8y ago
Regarding asthma, I know that recently we went hiking (as a family) for the first time, and the state park we visited was had much cleaner air than in the valley... so much so that all my minor allergies vanished when we showed up. I wonder if "contaminants" should really be read as "clean air with natural particulates" as opposed to the vehicle-generated emissions/tire particulate which seems to comprise most cities?
- acjohnson55 8y ago
  I wouldn't necessarily assume that the mountain trees are less allergy-inducing. It could just be that higher altitude means stronger and further reaching wind currents to disperse allergens.
sudosteph 8y ago
Given the connection to asthma you mentioned, here is something that you might also find interesting per this analysis of a few different factors: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2877483/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2877483/ > Results of this meta-analysis indicated an inverse association between atopy/allergies and childhood ALL; the pooled odds of any reported atopy/allergy were 31% lower among cases than among controls and were 21% lower for asthma, 26% lower for eczema, and 45% lower for hay fever. I've always considered myself unlucky for having hay fever and eczema since childhood, but what if those conditions (whether they be from overly clean environments or the opposite) actually do play a role in preventing childhood leukemia? It makes sense that a child with open sores from dermatitis, or with a persistently runny nose and frequent sneezing, would be better at collecting germs than one without those things. I'm not familiar enough with asthma to know if that could actually help collect germs, or if it's just that eczema and hay fever are so commonly associated with asthma that it's just a common comorbid condition (the "allergic march" as it's called).
mmjaa 8y ago
My family lives in one of these "clean freak" cultures of Europe, where there is a high priority placed, mostly by the heads of households, on maintaining the absolute pristine cleanliness of everything and staying out of the dirt. I've always resisted this, because my intuition is that kids who don't or can't get their hands dirty because of neuroses inherited from their parents are sick in other ways - but its interesting to have some scientific reasoning behind this. So its like the whole "clean freaks" culture that is so prevalent in the west (coz: pharmaceuticals gotta sell soap too, yo.) is at the root cause of this - very interesting. Will be interesting to see a followup to the research in a year or so and see just what is recommended - but again, that old wives tale that so many of us 'un-clean masses' propose - that we get our kids out in the mud with other kids for exercise and fun - seems to have been proven true.
- Ntrails 8y ago
  See, my problem isn't that I worry about the children getting ill from dirt etc. If they want to eat mud then be my guest. I just don't want them touching me / my things afterwards...
  - mmjaa 8y ago
    I think the point is, they kind of need to get a bit ill from dirt, recover again, and .. rinse and repeat .. but, y'know, far be it for me to worry about your kids. Mine won't stay out of the mud.

baxtr 8y ago

Yes, but later they say: Population studies in people together with animal experiments suggest this second genetic ‘hit’ can be triggered by infection – probably by a range of common viruses and bacteria. In one unique cluster of cases investigated by Professor Greaves and colleagues in Milan, all cases were all infected with a flu virus.

btilly 8y ago
The picture in the article says that the following is needed. 1. A mutation. 2. A clean childhood that does not build your immune system. 3. A follow-up mutation that can be caused by infection. So the clean childhood and infection as part of the picture are not contradictory to each other.

bazooka_penguin 8y ago

Makes you wonder how many diseases and bacteria we specifically evolved alongside

londons_explore 8y ago

I have yet to see compelling evidence that separates the effects of "clean environments" and "environments with lots of cleaning agents used". Are there any studies which investigate, for example, the difference between mechanical cleaning of an environment with a pressure washer and deionised water, vs chemical cleaning with household cleaners?

tomtheelder 8y ago
I think the article actually sort of addresses this, but only in passing and indirectly by mentioning that what they actually mean is growing up without breastefeeding and with limited exposure to other children. When they say clean, they don't really mean how well scrubbed the floors and counters are. When these sorts of studies are coming out, they are very rarely talking about the cleanliness of the house, more so the lifestyle and habits of the occupants. Now there could well be a correlation between households that clean with cleaning agents and those that limit interaction and breastfeeding, but I do think it's very unlikely that that is what is going on.
notabee 8y ago
There was a study recently that (in a mouse model) linked residual soap from baby wipes to food allergy development. https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2018/april/food-allergy-is-linked-to-skin-exposure-and-genetics/ https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2018/april/food-allerg...

stevenwoo 8y ago

There is probable correlation between home distance from highways and rates of childhood asthma (though my mental guess is that may be confounded by mostly poorer people living close to the highway or having a high traffic road built next to them). I just picked one article for reference. Of course both methods could be responsible in some way. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/traffic-pollution-and-asthma/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/traffic-pollution...

r00fus 8y ago

Regarding asthma, I know that recently we went hiking (as a family) for the first time, and the state park we visited was had much cleaner air than in the valley... so much so that all my minor allergies vanished when we showed up. I wonder if "contaminants" should really be read as "clean air with natural particulates" as opposed to the vehicle-generated emissions/tire particulate which seems to comprise most cities?

acjohnson55 8y ago
I wouldn't necessarily assume that the mountain trees are less allergy-inducing. It could just be that higher altitude means stronger and further reaching wind currents to disperse allergens.

sudosteph 8y ago

Given the connection to asthma you mentioned, here is something that you might also find interesting per this analysis of a few different factors: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2877483/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2877483/ > Results of this meta-analysis indicated an inverse association between atopy/allergies and childhood ALL; the pooled odds of any reported atopy/allergy were 31% lower among cases than among controls and were 21% lower for asthma, 26% lower for eczema, and 45% lower for hay fever. I've always considered myself unlucky for having hay fever and eczema since childhood, but what if those conditions (whether they be from overly clean environments or the opposite) actually do play a role in preventing childhood leukemia? It makes sense that a child with open sores from dermatitis, or with a persistently runny nose and frequent sneezing, would be better at collecting germs than one without those things. I'm not familiar enough with asthma to know if that could actually help collect germs, or if it's just that eczema and hay fever are so commonly associated with asthma that it's just a common comorbid condition (the "allergic march" as it's called).

mmjaa 8y ago

My family lives in one of these "clean freak" cultures of Europe, where there is a high priority placed, mostly by the heads of households, on maintaining the absolute pristine cleanliness of everything and staying out of the dirt. I've always resisted this, because my intuition is that kids who don't or can't get their hands dirty because of neuroses inherited from their parents are sick in other ways - but its interesting to have some scientific reasoning behind this. So its like the whole "clean freaks" culture that is so prevalent in the west (coz: pharmaceuticals gotta sell soap too, yo.) is at the root cause of this - very interesting. Will be interesting to see a followup to the research in a year or so and see just what is recommended - but again, that old wives tale that so many of us 'un-clean masses' propose - that we get our kids out in the mud with other kids for exercise and fun - seems to have been proven true.

Ntrails 8y ago
See, my problem isn't that I worry about the children getting ill from dirt etc. If they want to eat mud then be my guest. I just don't want them touching me / my things afterwards...
- mmjaa 8y ago
  I think the point is, they kind of need to get a bit ill from dirt, recover again, and .. rinse and repeat .. but, y'know, far be it for me to worry about your kids. Mine won't stay out of the mud.