8 ms·

My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates

29 points by markhall 8y ago

bgun 8y ago
Sometimes the most effective way to get the attention of influential people is by selling your willingness of wanting to learn from them at any cost, even if that means working for free or for very little money. Nope. Giving terrible advice, couching it in "my unpopular opinion", then backpedaling through "maybe this could work for you, who knows" is lazy writing and lazier thinking.
- handbanana 8y ago
  I don't necessarily think this was great advice. But perhaps you'd care to explain why it is terrible advice? And why is it backpedaling to say "maybe"? There are probably a lot of people who could get this approach right - but others who, for lack of maturity/experience or other reasons identify a poor/inadequate mentor/influencer. It's hard to give advice that's foolproof and will work 100% of the time for everyone - so I'm not sure what you're really getting at
- brandall10 8y ago
  Can you elaborate why this is terrible advice? I have two real-world examples where this notion played out spectacularly: - An ex-gf took an unpaid internship at the main museum here in San Diego with minimal job prospects upon graduating from USCD with a BA in history. 6 months later she took a full-time position at that museum, beating out someone with a MFA from Stanford simply because she was exposed to so many influential people in the industry who vouched for her. A year after that shee was promoted to managing their event planning dept. - I transitioned from C# to Rails work by doing a pro-bono project for 4 months @ ~20hrs/week, the main condition was that they paid for a Sr. dev for mentorship. My mentor on that project continued to bring me work following that project, so much so that I quit my day job. Value can be many things. Money is just one of them.
  - murph-almighty 8y ago
    Not OP. 1) It's an avenue for exploitation- if you did x for free for person A why won't you do y free for person B? What if this overtakes the time you need for your day job, which pays you and in turn enables you to work for free at your other gig? 2) It devalues the actual cost of labor. Why pay someone to build this when I can "pay someone with experience"? This complaint pops up a lot in graphic design work as well. This isn't to say "don't do side projects" or "don't do open source"- with the latter, it's something you're doing for a community rather than one entity for a business intent. But it's reasonable to be cautious when someone says "we need a website that's like Uber for X for $0".
    - handbanana 8y ago
      The scenario you give at the end is different. This isn't necessarily about finding advertised unpaid work - it's about getting your foot in the door and can involve offering to work highly discounted, or for free, in exchange for mentorship etc. Once you have the skills/connections from this initial step, you can advance your career. It's about taking calculated risks to advance your own interests - that otherwise probably won't get advanced as far/as quickly if you didn't take the risk(s). It's certainly not about working like a dog for someone trying to advance their own interests, while disregarding yours ("we need a website that's like Uber for X for $0")
    - brandall10 8y ago
      But the big thing you're missing is the context - to get experience and exposure. If you're in a situation where it's difficult to get either, that's how you're getting compensated. Again, I must restate, value comes in many forms. Money is simply one. In these situations you truly aren't working for 'free'. The main thing is to put limits and goals on such activities. My ex got into an industry where unpaid interns were a common thing and it kickstarted her career. She did have to walk away briefly before they offered her a (low) paid position, and they she had to walk away once more before she got a FT position. This wasn't going to happen any other way, and she absolutely flourished. The client I worked for didn't pay for my time but they paid for the time of my mentor. I specifically had 4 months @ 20 hrs. per week, they paid him 5 hours per week - this was detailed in the contract. I had no experience in Rails at the time and I sure as heck didn't want to fail at my first time at bat. It was worth it to me to take something like that on vs. a low rate without that assistance. But yes, if you're just getting started in software as a college student and taking an internship, of course you should be compensated as fairly as possible, because that in common in that context - if you don't, you are being exploited. Totally different thing.
- rossdavidh 8y ago
  It seems to me that, if you have to give away your labor for free to get your foot in the door, you have picked a career that will not go well. Even once you get a job, you may have to keep schmoozing and have "sharp elbows" to keep others from taking it from you. If you have to give away your labor to get started, that is valuable information in and of itself, but not in the way the author intended, I think.
- willio58 8y ago
  It isn’t even a novel idea, unpayed internships still exist and they’re terrible. Certain industries have gotten rid of them, but it took a lot of fighting to do so. Companies should be able to pay for labor, it’s as simple as that. You don’t have to pay an intern top dollar either, just a living wage will do.
andyonthewings 8y ago
I dont think the idea of doing free work in order to learn and acquire knowledge and skills is that unpopular or controversial. At least I myself did that when I was in university. I got into open source community and started contributing to the Haxe programming language. I ported some libraries from another languages and contributed some unit tests and CI configs (Travis, AppVeyor, SauceLabs) to the Haxe repo. Since I become a frequent contributor, the core developers are much more willing to teach and answer my questions on not just Haxe but coding knowledge in general. After I graduated I was employed by the Haxe Foundation and that was my first fulltime paid job.
- tabtab 8y ago
  I had to turn to such when my specialty was replaced by The Web. I boned up on Web tech, but had no practical Web experience to put on my resume. The only way I found to get practical experience was to do projects for free, in exchange for references. It was survival for me.
qntty 8y ago
Weird that his "unpopular" advice that sounds exactly like every other advice article...
- mamon 8y ago
  Good advice, even if it's common knowledge, is usually unpopular, because people want quick fixes, advice that does not require any effort on their part.
alexpotato 8y ago
I would make a slightly different point: The best way to earn is to find people who are willing to trade with you in a way that is fair for both of you. For example, I've worked (as in full time paid) for companies where I was told "Do X and we will pay you $Y". Upon completion of X, there was no $Y. This is an example of unfair trading aka not keeping up their end of the deal. I've also worked, for very little or no pay, and done even better work and the people/companies I worked for did exactly what they said they were going to do. Everyone has a different value space. If you are young and your time is cheap and you have lots of energy, find someone who needs that and is willing to trade you (ideally explicitly) for that in return for whatever you desire. That could be money, status, knowledge, experience etc
RickJWagner 8y ago
Huh. IMHO, the problem with 'learn, earn, return' is that the peak earning years are towards the age of retirement. If by 'return' the author means in some partial way (not full time), then I can maybe see it. But if he means full-time giving back in your retirement, I don't think that fits my plans. I plan on some relaxation.
stefanwlb 8y ago
Forbes magazine, work for free, rinse and repeat.

29 points by markhall 8y ago

bgun 8y ago

Sometimes the most effective way to get the attention of influential people is by selling your willingness of wanting to learn from them at any cost, even if that means working for free or for very little money. Nope. Giving terrible advice, couching it in "my unpopular opinion", then backpedaling through "maybe this could work for you, who knows" is lazy writing and lazier thinking.

handbanana 8y ago
I don't necessarily think this was great advice. But perhaps you'd care to explain why it is terrible advice? And why is it backpedaling to say "maybe"? There are probably a lot of people who could get this approach right - but others who, for lack of maturity/experience or other reasons identify a poor/inadequate mentor/influencer. It's hard to give advice that's foolproof and will work 100% of the time for everyone - so I'm not sure what you're really getting at
brandall10 8y ago
Can you elaborate why this is terrible advice? I have two real-world examples where this notion played out spectacularly: - An ex-gf took an unpaid internship at the main museum here in San Diego with minimal job prospects upon graduating from USCD with a BA in history. 6 months later she took a full-time position at that museum, beating out someone with a MFA from Stanford simply because she was exposed to so many influential people in the industry who vouched for her. A year after that shee was promoted to managing their event planning dept. - I transitioned from C# to Rails work by doing a pro-bono project for 4 months @ ~20hrs/week, the main condition was that they paid for a Sr. dev for mentorship. My mentor on that project continued to bring me work following that project, so much so that I quit my day job. Value can be many things. Money is just one of them.
- murph-almighty 8y ago
  Not OP. 1) It's an avenue for exploitation- if you did x for free for person A why won't you do y free for person B? What if this overtakes the time you need for your day job, which pays you and in turn enables you to work for free at your other gig? 2) It devalues the actual cost of labor. Why pay someone to build this when I can "pay someone with experience"? This complaint pops up a lot in graphic design work as well. This isn't to say "don't do side projects" or "don't do open source"- with the latter, it's something you're doing for a community rather than one entity for a business intent. But it's reasonable to be cautious when someone says "we need a website that's like Uber for X for $0".
  - handbanana 8y ago
    The scenario you give at the end is different. This isn't necessarily about finding advertised unpaid work - it's about getting your foot in the door and can involve offering to work highly discounted, or for free, in exchange for mentorship etc. Once you have the skills/connections from this initial step, you can advance your career. It's about taking calculated risks to advance your own interests - that otherwise probably won't get advanced as far/as quickly if you didn't take the risk(s). It's certainly not about working like a dog for someone trying to advance their own interests, while disregarding yours ("we need a website that's like Uber for X for $0")
  - brandall10 8y ago
    But the big thing you're missing is the context - to get experience and exposure. If you're in a situation where it's difficult to get either, that's how you're getting compensated. Again, I must restate, value comes in many forms. Money is simply one. In these situations you truly aren't working for 'free'. The main thing is to put limits and goals on such activities. My ex got into an industry where unpaid interns were a common thing and it kickstarted her career. She did have to walk away briefly before they offered her a (low) paid position, and they she had to walk away once more before she got a FT position. This wasn't going to happen any other way, and she absolutely flourished. The client I worked for didn't pay for my time but they paid for the time of my mentor. I specifically had 4 months @ 20 hrs. per week, they paid him 5 hours per week - this was detailed in the contract. I had no experience in Rails at the time and I sure as heck didn't want to fail at my first time at bat. It was worth it to me to take something like that on vs. a low rate without that assistance. But yes, if you're just getting started in software as a college student and taking an internship, of course you should be compensated as fairly as possible, because that in common in that context - if you don't, you are being exploited. Totally different thing.
rossdavidh 8y ago
It seems to me that, if you have to give away your labor for free to get your foot in the door, you have picked a career that will not go well. Even once you get a job, you may have to keep schmoozing and have "sharp elbows" to keep others from taking it from you. If you have to give away your labor to get started, that is valuable information in and of itself, but not in the way the author intended, I think.
willio58 8y ago
It isn’t even a novel idea, unpayed internships still exist and they’re terrible. Certain industries have gotten rid of them, but it took a lot of fighting to do so. Companies should be able to pay for labor, it’s as simple as that. You don’t have to pay an intern top dollar either, just a living wage will do.

andyonthewings 8y ago

I dont think the idea of doing free work in order to learn and acquire knowledge and skills is that unpopular or controversial. At least I myself did that when I was in university. I got into open source community and started contributing to the Haxe programming language. I ported some libraries from another languages and contributed some unit tests and CI configs (Travis, AppVeyor, SauceLabs) to the Haxe repo. Since I become a frequent contributor, the core developers are much more willing to teach and answer my questions on not just Haxe but coding knowledge in general. After I graduated I was employed by the Haxe Foundation and that was my first fulltime paid job.

tabtab 8y ago
I had to turn to such when my specialty was replaced by The Web. I boned up on Web tech, but had no practical Web experience to put on my resume. The only way I found to get practical experience was to do projects for free, in exchange for references. It was survival for me.

qntty 8y ago

Weird that his "unpopular" advice that sounds exactly like every other advice article...

mamon 8y ago
Good advice, even if it's common knowledge, is usually unpopular, because people want quick fixes, advice that does not require any effort on their part.

alexpotato 8y ago

I would make a slightly different point: The best way to earn is to find people who are willing to trade with you in a way that is fair for both of you. For example, I've worked (as in full time paid) for companies where I was told "Do X and we will pay you $Y". Upon completion of X, there was no $Y. This is an example of unfair trading aka not keeping up their end of the deal. I've also worked, for very little or no pay, and done even better work and the people/companies I worked for did exactly what they said they were going to do. Everyone has a different value space. If you are young and your time is cheap and you have lots of energy, find someone who needs that and is willing to trade you (ideally explicitly) for that in return for whatever you desire. That could be money, status, knowledge, experience etc

RickJWagner 8y ago

Huh. IMHO, the problem with 'learn, earn, return' is that the peak earning years are towards the age of retirement. If by 'return' the author means in some partial way (not full time), then I can maybe see it. But if he means full-time giving back in your retirement, I don't think that fits my plans. I plan on some relaxation.

stefanwlb 8y ago

Forbes magazine, work for free, rinse and repeat.