4 ms·

Yeah "once you learn the proper method" is the key phrase here. The proper method being "use rote memorization to learn about things which could have easily bee

Yeah "once you learn the proper method" is the key phrase here. The proper method being "use rote memorization to learn about things which could have easily been made available via some discoverable visual mechanism". GUIs make things easy to learn and easy to do. Especially on an OS like Windows where you can drive the entire UI with just the keyboard and about a handful of well-known keyboard shortcuts. So what's your point? Perhaps you're using a Mac or some other barely usable desktop system that has crappy keyboard acceleration for the UI?

gwn7 8y ago
> The proper method being "use rote memorization to learn about things which could have easily been made available via some discoverable visual mechanism" I already said that this is a trade-off. Nobody's claiming that the vim way is the "right way" to do text editing. If you prefer a discoverable visual mechanism, you can go with it. But some people clearly prefer to "use rote memorization" because they obviously gain something out of it. And believe it or not, "rote memorization" is an essential part of our everyday life. Without it, you can do nothing. I don't see any harm in somebody deciding to apply it to text editing as well. Obviously thousands of people decided to do that, looking at vim's popularity. And lastly, the memory we are talking about here is the muscle memory. You put something there once and it's done. Using vim is very much like riding a bicyle in that sense. Would you prefer to have a bike that has labels on the pedals, brakes, gears; and prefer to go through those labels each the you need to use one of them? Memorization allows you to do things without thinking. The mantra of vim and similar tools is to enable you to become one with the tool just like you become one with your bike, your tennis racket, your sword (!), whatever. Touch typing really helps here as well. You can't understand that without investing enough time to that. (You don't have to. But you don't have to criticize it without really knowing what you are talking about either.) I use Arch Linux. Keyboard accelaration is perfect.
- hungerstrike 8y ago
  Define rote: mechanical or habitual repetition of something to be learned. This is not something that is part of every day life at all. After school the only time I had to repeat something over and over with any kind of frequency at all was when I was learning vim. > Would you prefer to have a bike that has labels on the pedals, brakes, gears; and prefer to go through those labels each the you need to use one of them? That's not a really good analogy because my memory also works for GUI apps. However, I didn't have to use a rote method to get there. I just use the GUI with its labels and visuals helping me along the way. If I don't use something for a while, the labels and other visual elements are there to help me out. > Memorization allows you to do things without thinking. Yes and your memory works with GUIs too. But again, I didn't have to put myself through weeks of exercises to use a GUI. > You put something there once and it's done. I don't think so. Time is a thing and particularly with regards to lesser used features - you'll find yourself looking up things that you once knew. > I use Arch Linux. Keyboard accelaration is perfect. Sure it does... at least until the next update amirite?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - gwn7 8y ago
    > Define rote: mechanical or habitual repetition of something to be learned. This is not something that is part of every day life at all. I can understand that. It was already clear that you are not the type to give time to learn about rather elaborate tools that have higher learning curves than the average. That's ok. It may not be a part of YOUR everyday life. But not everybody is living your life. The difference between you and me is that you are implying that vim is pointless and wrong. I'm saying that everybody should go with whatever works best for them and that every approach has their benefits. Also, attacking my operating system has nothing to do with this discussion. Not a very effective rhetorical method.
    - hungerstrike 8y ago
      I agree that everybody should use what works best for them. So there’s definitely value in that. Typically when I pose an argument in a thread like this, about a technology that I don’t prefer, it’s due to the fact that a multitude of users have badgered me over my own preferences elsewhere, saying that their technology is clearly superior. I use Windows, Linux and Mac in that order of frequency and I like them all for different reasons and I dislike them all for different reasons. A ton of users on HN react badly to anyone who isn’t just like them. So, I was being a bit defensive sorry.

gwn7 8y ago

> The proper method being "use rote memorization to learn about things which could have easily been made available via some discoverable visual mechanism" I already said that this is a trade-off. Nobody's claiming that the vim way is the "right way" to do text editing. If you prefer a discoverable visual mechanism, you can go with it. But some people clearly prefer to "use rote memorization" because they obviously gain something out of it. And believe it or not, "rote memorization" is an essential part of our everyday life. Without it, you can do nothing. I don't see any harm in somebody deciding to apply it to text editing as well. Obviously thousands of people decided to do that, looking at vim's popularity. And lastly, the memory we are talking about here is the muscle memory. You put something there once and it's done. Using vim is very much like riding a bicyle in that sense. Would you prefer to have a bike that has labels on the pedals, brakes, gears; and prefer to go through those labels each the you need to use one of them? Memorization allows you to do things without thinking. The mantra of vim and similar tools is to enable you to become one with the tool just like you become one with your bike, your tennis racket, your sword (!), whatever. Touch typing really helps here as well. You can't understand that without investing enough time to that. (You don't have to. But you don't have to criticize it without really knowing what you are talking about either.) I use Arch Linux. Keyboard accelaration is perfect.

hungerstrike 8y ago
Define rote: mechanical or habitual repetition of something to be learned. This is not something that is part of every day life at all. After school the only time I had to repeat something over and over with any kind of frequency at all was when I was learning vim. > Would you prefer to have a bike that has labels on the pedals, brakes, gears; and prefer to go through those labels each the you need to use one of them? That's not a really good analogy because my memory also works for GUI apps. However, I didn't have to use a rote method to get there. I just use the GUI with its labels and visuals helping me along the way. If I don't use something for a while, the labels and other visual elements are there to help me out. > Memorization allows you to do things without thinking. Yes and your memory works with GUIs too. But again, I didn't have to put myself through weeks of exercises to use a GUI. > You put something there once and it's done. I don't think so. Time is a thing and particularly with regards to lesser used features - you'll find yourself looking up things that you once knew. > I use Arch Linux. Keyboard accelaration is perfect. Sure it does... at least until the next update amirite?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- gwn7 8y ago
  > Define rote: mechanical or habitual repetition of something to be learned. This is not something that is part of every day life at all. I can understand that. It was already clear that you are not the type to give time to learn about rather elaborate tools that have higher learning curves than the average. That's ok. It may not be a part of YOUR everyday life. But not everybody is living your life. The difference between you and me is that you are implying that vim is pointless and wrong. I'm saying that everybody should go with whatever works best for them and that every approach has their benefits. Also, attacking my operating system has nothing to do with this discussion. Not a very effective rhetorical method.
  - hungerstrike 8y ago
    I agree that everybody should use what works best for them. So there’s definitely value in that. Typically when I pose an argument in a thread like this, about a technology that I don’t prefer, it’s due to the fact that a multitude of users have badgered me over my own preferences elsewhere, saying that their technology is clearly superior. I use Windows, Linux and Mac in that order of frequency and I like them all for different reasons and I dislike them all for different reasons. A ton of users on HN react badly to anyone who isn’t just like them. So, I was being a bit defensive sorry.