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Predatory Behavior Runs Rampant in Facebook’s Addiction Support Groups
- SiempreViernes 8y ago> “I reached out to Laurie to see how I could help,” Calvert responded when I reached out to her. Man, what's with this fascination with "reaching out"? Here we a sales person targeting victims of addiction for a sales pitch terming it "reaching out", setting up some pretty negative associations of that phrase. Yet the journalist is so conditioned they use the very same words for the process of requesting a comment from one of villains of the story! I guess it's just poor editing, but the blindness is still remarkable!
- bmans94 8y agoYou could spin it even more, calling it an “outreach program”! Yeah, that term has come to be industry standard for “I want something from you, so I am going to now insert myself into your life until I manipulate you into giving it to me”.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- docdeek 8y agoPrevious reporting by the author of this piece also inspired a great episode of the Reply All podcast last week. [0] [0] https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/121-pain-funnel https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/121-pain-funnel
- e40 8y agoThat was a good and eye opening episode.
- oflannabhra 8y agoTotally agree. For folks not wanting to listen to the whole episode (although you should!) the basic synopsis is: Obamacare mandated that all insurance should cover rehab costs. Several rehabilitation companies opened an enormous amount of "clinics" in Florida. "Rehab SEO" companies then offered services to these clinics to funnel patients to them. Clinics could charge upwards of $5,000 per urine test from the insurance companies. It became so profitable, that rehab companies would pay to fly patients down to Florida, pay $1,500 commissions to the SEO companies, and more. This system of misaligned incentives resulted in the "rehab" companies to buy drugs for their patients, so that they would fail a drug test. This would allow them to "reset" billing for that patient. There is an anecdote from a patient describing one such clinic directly next to a crackhouse with prostitutes. Apparently many patients spent years rotating through these clinics because they had no other options (except maybe homelessness, due to their addictions). Florida eventually legislated rules that prevented this behavior, which resulted in many of these "rehab" clinics moving to California. More reporting on this system: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/27/business/addiction-inc.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/27/business/addi... https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/sober-homes/ https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/sober-homes/
- stlava 8y agoI just listened to it last night. It was an eye opening episode. You could see how easy it is for desperate people to fall victim to the brokers.
- mieseratte 8y agoReading the title, I had assumed this was just going to be the digitization of the typical AA / NA creep hitting on "fellow" attendees, or drug dealer looking for clientele. Instead this is predatory companies looking for a meal ticket. I can't help but think just how much the internet opens the door to bad actors trying to pillage and plunder. Really makes this line of work feel like a massive mistake.
- 2sk21 8y agoIndeed, trust is precious and its just too easy for malicious actors to acquire trust from vulnerable people.
- technofiend 8y ago>Reading the title, I had assumed this was just going to be the digitization of the typical AA / NA creep hitting on "fellow" attendees [...] One of my friends from high school jokingly told me they call that the thirteenth step. So it must be pretty widespread to have a name, which is sad. You go some place for help and your fellow attendees prey upon you instead.
- weeksie 8y agoIt's understandable to frame it in this way, and there are legitimate predators who take advantage of people in those environments. The common case is more prosaic: addicts are often codependent and will seek romantic companionship amongst each other, especially in close personal environments like that. Starting a relationship early on in the recovery process is a common (yet tempting) mistake and conventional wisdom warns against it, which is why the phrase exists. [I spent a few years in the orbit of 12 step programs in my youth]
- satokema 8y ago"I have a problem and I want to share it with you."
- pavel_lishin 8y agoI don't think it needs to be that sinister; people tend to form relationships with those they feel emotionally close to, and there's probably a pretty rapid onset of intimacy in support groups like that. I'm not saying there aren't predators, mind you, I just don't think that every relationship there stems from one person trying to take advantage of another.
- orf 8y ago> Marketers from the treatment center had to approve every post in the group, which gave them the first opportunity to privately message good candidates for their rehab and try to talk them into going to Windward in California. They needed that edge, Mendoza explained to me a few weeks ago, because they knew a Facebook group that big would be full of other marketers, waiting to swoop in as soon as a juicy message was public. There is something uniquely... American about this comment. By that I mean that divorced from the ethics setting up large Facebook groups and using them to funnel patients into your addiction center is a great strategy, and it clearly works. It seems, to me at least, to make good business sense. That's not to say that the practice itself is unique to America, more that it's encouraged by the hyper capitalist 'profit above all else' that America espouses. After taking a step backwards however then you're just exploiting/taking advantage of vulnerable people looking for help and using that to manipulate them into giving you money.
- smt88 8y agoI'm not sure what basis you're using to suggest that exploiting addicts is somehow unique to (or uniquely bad in) the US, but you should read the histories of England, China, India, or any other industrialized nation for more context. If you meant that this is a capitalism/free-market problem and the US is the poster child for those values, then I agree with the sentiment, if not the phrasing.
- orf 8y ago> If you meant that this is a capitalism/free-market problem and the US is the poster child for those values, then I agree with the sentiment, if not the phrasing. Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. I've edited it a bit to make that more clear. I would argue that it does seem uniquely bad in the US, and that could be for a number of reasons like significant differences in drug use compared to other developed nations[1]. 1. https://recoverybrands.com/drugs-in-america-vs-europe/ https://recoverybrands.com/drugs-in-america-vs-europe/
- 0xfaded 8y agoI'm looking at moving to Denmark, and as part of my reading I was surprised to learn that public sector employment accounts for 40% of full time jobs. For all the bad rap it gets about being inefficient, some things really ought to be run by the government, especially when public money is involved. I find it hard to believe that a government run system could be less efficient than one that has to pay off insurance companies, recruiters, and mass marketers, all with what seems like little oversight.
- lb1lf 8y agoThat’s just Sutton’s Law at work. (Willie Sutton was a notorious bank robber, who allegedly upon being asked why he robbed banks, replied «Because that’s where the money is!») While distinctly in poor taste, it can hardly be a surprise that these groups are preyed upon by marketers.
- JackFr 8y agoTo some extent this is like the garbage for profit universities, for which Federal student aid is the target and the wrecked student finances are merely collateral damage. In this case insurance money is the target, and its not important whether anyone is helped. What makes such problems difficult is that they precisely cannot be solved by throwing more money at the problem which in many cases can exacerbate them.
- fiatjaf 8y agoIn some years we'll begin to see actual Facebook Addiction Support Groups.
- tr33house 8y agosad but true. I think we have a few already
- pc86 8y agoWhere will they meet though?
- gowld 8y agoGoogle+?
- starrychloe2 8y agoLOL! MeWe.com?
- jacquesm 8y agoThey exist, guess where: https://www.facebook.com/Facebook-support-group-for-facebook-users-addicted-to-facebook-140729029271216/ https://www.facebook.com/Facebook-support-group-for-facebook...
- bmans94 8y agoI immediately assumed, upon reading the title, that this was some sort of Facebook Addiction group, rather than addiction groups on Facebook. I live a pretty shielded life as far as knowing/seeing legitimate drug addicts, but I found it interesting that I know many people who would definitely benefit from Facebook/social media addiction therapy. Probably communicating over email.
- jonnycomputer 8y agoThe weak, the desperate, the vulnerable--these are always the first to be victimized by the self-interested and unscrupulous, the scammers, the cons, the gutter scum.
- mikec3010 8y agoYou could say the same thing about doctors. How dare they try to collect a paycheck saving vulnerable trauma patients who can't even consent to treatment. To me, where it becomes a scam is if/when they proffer completely ineffective treatments. If this place happens to make a buck while saving someone's life, more power to them.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago"You could say the same thing about doctors. How dare they try to collect a paycheck saving vulnerable trauma patients who can't even consent to treatment." No, you really can't.
- metrue 8y agoPlease ignore this comments, just for testing, #asmalltalk
- greggarious 8y agoAlong similar lines, Reply All recently did a segment on predatory "treatment" centers that basically milk money from Medicare w/o providing effective treatment: https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/121-pain-funnel#episode-player https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/121-pain-funnel#episod...
- exelius 8y agoSame author actually. But yes, Medicare fraud is all too common. I honestly don’t understand why — Medicare fraud is very easy to catch with modern analytics and the penalties are stiff. But it persists... CMS is moving to outcome-based payments for this reason. Too many relapses coming from your treatment center? You get less per patient until your results improve. That should eventually help reduce this kind of behavior.
- njarboe 8y agoMay reduce this kind of behavior but this type of measurement for competency selects for centers that only recruit and accept people that are likely to recover and not the hard cases (who are the people most in need of the service). Hard core addicts need not apply. The principle/agent problem pops up everywhere.
- m3kw9 8y agoStrong found a dwelling for the weak, and preyed on them.
- CPLX 8y ago> There’s a very long history of people going to [12-step] meetings and being taken advantage of by drug dealers No, there isn't. This seems like another pop-culture meme that comes out of drug war hysteria.
- Maybestring 8y agoIt's on its face, not a great place for a drug dealer to find new clients. In recovery you find people that already have access, trying to stop using.
- alxndr 8y agoI don't know about a long history, but it does happen today. Source: I know someone who is a substance abuse counselor.
- anon823274 8y agoI've been going to meetings for 21 years, and this is utter nonsense.
- ggg9990 8y agoPerhaps different people's experiences are different?
- anon823274 8y ago21 years of direct experience all over the country is hardly equivalent to "knows a guy who said a thing."
- carc1n0gen 8y agoYoure also just a guy who said a thing though
- FearNotDaniel 8y agoMy understanding from friends who spent time in 12 Step groups a few years ago was that the general consensus was for people in the groups to actively discourage each other from connecting on Facebook and other social media and from otherwise revealing their status as "recovering addicts" in these avenues. The expectation of this sort of thing happening was already there, and the principle of anonymity is already broken just by going online and discussing these things. As I understand it, the in-person groups were generally quite effective at self-policing to discourage commercial interests from creeping in. Of course, for people in rural, isolated situations some online contact with others might be the only option. Generally, the groups themselves run online forums and Skype group meetings for these situations. They may not be as flashy and all-pervasive as jumping on the latest social media hype train, but they are a heck of a lot safer when this sort of thing is going on.
- exelius 8y agoAgree in-person help is required, but the groups aren’t for everyone. Personally I kicked my habit with a psychiatrist, a therapist and some new friends — sometimes that’s all you need. Really the thing folks need most is someone they know knows their world. Someone to pierce the veil and tell you it’s all bullshit, and that if you want help you have to actually want help. This is what addicts are looking for online, and unfortunately it’s all too easy to manipulate people in this state. Dealers and con men taking advantage of this ease of manipulation is as old as drug addiction. This happens in NA/AA meetings too, but the sponsors are usually pretty good at spotting them. I don’t trust Facebook to play that role.
- retSava 8y agoNot-connecting on FB might not be enough, since FB can and will connect the dots and suggest attendees as friends based on them being at the same place at the same time (thanks to location tracking from apps and whatnot).
- achievingApathy 8y agoThe same is true for anything remotely to do with credit or credit repair. There is a whole rat's nest of companies run out of the same PO Box in Minnesota that was shut down by the governor at least a few times now, but they basically have people go on and on about how these repair places worked miracles and post fake pics of "credit reports" that show these amazing 70-80 point boosts overnight. Now those sorts of jumps can happen but they are the exception, not the rule. They give shoddy credit advice to people so their scores initially go down to make them eager to sign up for a monthly recurring bill where they will basically sit on their hands and collect a check. It's revolting.
- howard941 8y agoThere's one of those that hawks bad terrible credit advice products on local PBS pledge drives, leveraging PBS's credibility to bolster her own. Same with the shady quacks peddling their snake oil. All revoltingly trading on the vulnerabilities of others.
- bayonetz 8y agoThere is a great recent Reply All podcast episode called Pain Funnel on shady rehabs. Diabolical, perverse-incentive capitalism at its finest. For example, giving drugs to teens kicked out of one rehab so that they can “piss dirty” to get accepted to a new detox/rehab. On top of the drugs, they give them a cash bonus for doing it. The rehabs then do stuff like urine screens three times per day which they can bill insurance at $5000 per screen. Insane!
- hacknewsleet 8y agoThis is nothing new, rehabs do the same predatory shit and provide terrible treatment, in order to keep addicts relapsing and coming back. See John Oliver’s latest episode today.
- phkahler 8y agoNever thought about that. Poor treatment means repeat customers. It's the same thing that drives pharma to seek treatments for symptoms over cures.
- ggg9990 8y agoI know the “correct” Silicon Valley position is to be anti-death penalty, but damn there are some people who need to be doused in gasoline and set on fire.
- neurotech1 8y agoSlightly OT: John Oliver did an interesting, albeit satirical, piece on rehab centers last night. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWQiXv0sn9Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWQiXv0sn9Y
- gowld 8y agoTherapy is a terrible match for the free market. The fundamental axioms of free trade are in contradiction when participants' irrationality is one of of the axioms. Look at how aggressively advertisers bid for ad spots on [credit counseling services] https://www.google.com/search?q=credit+counseling+services https://www.google.com/search?q=credit+counseling+services
- starrychloe2 8y agoIt's like Breaking Bad when they sell meth to the support group.
- stemc43 8y agoI use reddit's stopdrinking subreddit - it's very good.
- RickJWagner 8y ago"Don't talk to strangers" is applicable to social media, too.
- taejavu 8y agoYou realise that advice is for children, right?