8 ms·

Barcelona is leading the fightback against smart city surveillance

208 points by justaguyhere 8y ago

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
darthdev 8y ago
“Now we have a big contract with Vodafone, and every month Vodafone has to give machine readable data to city hall. Before, that didn’t happen. They just took all the data and used it for their own benefit” So, now Vodafone AND the city government has this data about the citizens. How is this fighting against surveillance? Am I missing something? :/
- mtgx 8y ago
  You're not. They're only improving transparency a little bit, but ultimately that same data can and will be abused by whichever government comes into power next. I also wanted to add how deeply involved into surveillance Vodafone seems to be. I've started noticing it since some Snowden and Wikileaks revelations back. Helping governments enable surveillance on their populations seems to be kind of Vodafone's side-business.
- wwarner 8y ago
  Fair enough, but setting the expectation of participation and transparency is a worthwhile goal in and of itself, more important that any individual failure to actually realize it.
- pfortuny 8y ago
  It looks like the title is absolute clickbait-misleading-almost-lying crap. They paid Vodafone and Vodafone used the data. "Fair enough" (so to say). No they pay Vodafone and Vodafone and they use the data. "backslash". You are indeed missing something. The same as I am.
- sjclemmy 8y ago
  The funny thing about democracy is that if you have a fairly egalitarian society, the government actually represents the views of, and works for the people. So the statement you quote is saying that the people, through their democratic system of represention, has control of the data. Local power structures like local government tend to be quite good.
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    They have a copy, not control. Ranked from most abused to least abused, you have secret misuse and leaks, corporate misuse and leaks, and democratic misuse and leaks; and if they all get a copy you take their individual leak+misuse outputs and add them. Metaphorically, you go from a criminal with a gun at your head to a criminal and a friend both with guns at your head.
    - bumholio 8y ago
      The democratic majority is not your friend unless you are part of it. Think about anyone convicted of socially reprehensible crimes. The information that you used to be a pedophile will certainly make your life a living hell when it is used for the good of the people.
- CapacitorSet 8y ago
  Indeed, with "fightback" I assumed either the citizens were destroying surveillance equipment or the city prevented surveillance equipment from being installed. Turns out it's just the government getting its piece of the cake.
jacquesm 8y ago
That's an interesting development but all it will take to cause damage is a reversal of the fortunes of the political party that brings this about. You always have to worry about the next government, not the current one when you start creating databases. And that next government may decide not to honor the citizens in the same way the present one does.
- icc97 8y ago
  The good bits are fairly closely aligned with GDPR so it will be hard for the next government to over turn.
- justaguyhere 8y ago
  It is the responsibility of the citizens to make sure the next government honors these promises, right? A good example would be the abortion policy (https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/presidential-memorandum-regarding-mexico-city-policy/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/presidential...) Every republican president reverses what the previous democratic president did, and vice versa. If the public doesn't care enough about these issues, then how can we expect politicians to care?
jasdeepsingh 8y ago
I think a city like Barcelona, with their theft and crime problem can make use of some sort of surveillance. Just two weeks ago, 3 hours before ending my vacation in the city, Me and my wife were robbed off roughly worth $10k USD in a car tire puncture scam. http://tourist-scams.com/tourist-scam-destinations/barcelona-spain/car-tire-puncture-scam/ http://tourist-scams.com/tourist-scam-destinations/barcelona...
- franciscop 8y ago
  This kind of things are rarely problems for locals* , so I can see how they might be a low priority for the government/police. Instead, solving poverty issues+better education seems to be a better solution (for me and for the cities) than trying to make it into a police state. Example: one of the safest places in Spain I've seen are libraries in Universities. People leave their laptops and go to the toilet/for lunch and nothing happens. The unsafest places I'd say are beaches, clubs and main statios. * which happens all around the world. I never thought I'd be scammed like this, being from Spain, but I was scammed in Vietnam!
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    This. People generally prefer to make an honest buck but when honest bucks are few and far between skimming your cut off the people who pass through using whatever means necessary becomes very attractive. You even see this dynamic in in college towns where the college town and associated services are generally ok but all the surrounding communities run speed traps like their going out of style in order to skim a few bucks off of all the people passing through as a result of the college and the commerce it generates. A healthy local economy generally prevents too many people from trying to make a dishonest buck.
    - jerkstate 8y ago
      in my experience, there's a tradeoff curve with "honesty" of income on one axis and time/effort spent per money on the other axis, and different people have different curves (at different times in their lives.)
personlurking 8y ago
The article said DECODE is an EU-funded project. Reminded me that there's a cool monthly magazine [1] on other such projects, called Research EU. All 71 past editions are available in multiple languages, and downloadable. The magazine "features highlights from the latest Results in Brief and project news from the world of European research and innovation" ... "where each issue covers a specific topic of interest to researchers, policymakers and other stakeholders in the research field." 1 - https://cordis.europa.eu/research-eu/home_en.html https://cordis.europa.eu/research-eu/home_en.html
mig39 8y ago
If you were to ask me which city needs more surveillance, it would be Barcelona. The amount of petty crime, the constantly being approached by groups of people offering "services" and "products" is insane. I love most cities, but that's the one place where I had a strange feeling -- I think I was afraid?
- ktosobcy 8y ago
  As a tourist or living there?
  - mig39 8y ago
    A tourist. Everywhere else, the touristy places are well policed. Seemed the opposite in Barcelona. All the same, the only time I didn't have that weird feeling of dread was when I went off the beaten path and away from the touristy areas.
    - madeofpalk 8y ago
      Today I literally just finishes 2 months travelling around the area. I felt less safe in parts of France than in Barcelona.
- snvzz 8y ago
  I'm from there. It's not that bad, but not looking out of place helps considerably. There's not much violent crime, so just keep your wits about you; You'll be fine :)
- confounded 8y ago
  I never had any problems (or at least any worse problems than anywhere else). I’ve had worse problems in London, which has plenty of surveillance.
xondono 8y ago
I had come across this article before. I just wanted to add a little update. This “direct democracy” voting system has already been put to test. The citizens voted against Colau’s party proposals. The official comment is that they “will take that into account”, but controversial plans still go forward.
rgrieselhuber 8y ago
If you see the word “smart” in front of some object, there is a strong chance it will be used against you once you have come to depend on it.
femto 8y ago
The Catalan independence movement would be serving to overcome the apathy which would otherwise be present. A significant number of Barcelonans would be keen to limit the ability of Madrid to use information from the phone network to squash dissent.

208 points by justaguyhere 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

“Now we have a big contract with Vodafone, and every month Vodafone has to give machine readable data to city hall. Before, that didn’t happen. They just took all the data and used it for their own benefit” So, now Vodafone AND the city government has this data about the citizens. How is this fighting against surveillance? Am I missing something? :/

mtgx 8y ago
You're not. They're only improving transparency a little bit, but ultimately that same data can and will be abused by whichever government comes into power next. I also wanted to add how deeply involved into surveillance Vodafone seems to be. I've started noticing it since some Snowden and Wikileaks revelations back. Helping governments enable surveillance on their populations seems to be kind of Vodafone's side-business.
wwarner 8y ago
Fair enough, but setting the expectation of participation and transparency is a worthwhile goal in and of itself, more important that any individual failure to actually realize it.
pfortuny 8y ago
It looks like the title is absolute clickbait-misleading-almost-lying crap. They paid Vodafone and Vodafone used the data. "Fair enough" (so to say). No they pay Vodafone and Vodafone and they use the data. "backslash". You are indeed missing something. The same as I am.
sjclemmy 8y ago
The funny thing about democracy is that if you have a fairly egalitarian society, the government actually represents the views of, and works for the people. So the statement you quote is saying that the people, through their democratic system of represention, has control of the data. Local power structures like local government tend to be quite good.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  They have a copy, not control. Ranked from most abused to least abused, you have secret misuse and leaks, corporate misuse and leaks, and democratic misuse and leaks; and if they all get a copy you take their individual leak+misuse outputs and add them. Metaphorically, you go from a criminal with a gun at your head to a criminal and a friend both with guns at your head.
  - bumholio 8y ago
    The democratic majority is not your friend unless you are part of it. Think about anyone convicted of socially reprehensible crimes. The information that you used to be a pedophile will certainly make your life a living hell when it is used for the good of the people.
CapacitorSet 8y ago
Indeed, with "fightback" I assumed either the citizens were destroying surveillance equipment or the city prevented surveillance equipment from being installed. Turns out it's just the government getting its piece of the cake.

jacquesm 8y ago

That's an interesting development but all it will take to cause damage is a reversal of the fortunes of the political party that brings this about. You always have to worry about the next government, not the current one when you start creating databases. And that next government may decide not to honor the citizens in the same way the present one does.

icc97 8y ago
The good bits are fairly closely aligned with GDPR so it will be hard for the next government to over turn.
justaguyhere 8y ago
It is the responsibility of the citizens to make sure the next government honors these promises, right? A good example would be the abortion policy (https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/presidential-memorandum-regarding-mexico-city-policy/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/presidential...) Every republican president reverses what the previous democratic president did, and vice versa. If the public doesn't care enough about these issues, then how can we expect politicians to care?

jasdeepsingh 8y ago

I think a city like Barcelona, with their theft and crime problem can make use of some sort of surveillance. Just two weeks ago, 3 hours before ending my vacation in the city, Me and my wife were robbed off roughly worth $10k USD in a car tire puncture scam. http://tourist-scams.com/tourist-scam-destinations/barcelona-spain/car-tire-puncture-scam/ http://tourist-scams.com/tourist-scam-destinations/barcelona...

franciscop 8y ago
This kind of things are rarely problems for locals* , so I can see how they might be a low priority for the government/police. Instead, solving poverty issues+better education seems to be a better solution (for me and for the cities) than trying to make it into a police state. Example: one of the safest places in Spain I've seen are libraries in Universities. People leave their laptops and go to the toilet/for lunch and nothing happens. The unsafest places I'd say are beaches, clubs and main statios. * which happens all around the world. I never thought I'd be scammed like this, being from Spain, but I was scammed in Vietnam!
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  This. People generally prefer to make an honest buck but when honest bucks are few and far between skimming your cut off the people who pass through using whatever means necessary becomes very attractive. You even see this dynamic in in college towns where the college town and associated services are generally ok but all the surrounding communities run speed traps like their going out of style in order to skim a few bucks off of all the people passing through as a result of the college and the commerce it generates. A healthy local economy generally prevents too many people from trying to make a dishonest buck.
  - jerkstate 8y ago
    in my experience, there's a tradeoff curve with "honesty" of income on one axis and time/effort spent per money on the other axis, and different people have different curves (at different times in their lives.)

personlurking 8y ago

The article said DECODE is an EU-funded project. Reminded me that there's a cool monthly magazine [1] on other such projects, called Research EU. All 71 past editions are available in multiple languages, and downloadable. The magazine "features highlights from the latest Results in Brief and project news from the world of European research and innovation" ... "where each issue covers a specific topic of interest to researchers, policymakers and other stakeholders in the research field." 1 - https://cordis.europa.eu/research-eu/home_en.html https://cordis.europa.eu/research-eu/home_en.html

mig39 8y ago

If you were to ask me which city needs more surveillance, it would be Barcelona. The amount of petty crime, the constantly being approached by groups of people offering "services" and "products" is insane. I love most cities, but that's the one place where I had a strange feeling -- I think I was afraid?

ktosobcy 8y ago
As a tourist or living there?
- mig39 8y ago
  A tourist. Everywhere else, the touristy places are well policed. Seemed the opposite in Barcelona. All the same, the only time I didn't have that weird feeling of dread was when I went off the beaten path and away from the touristy areas.
  - madeofpalk 8y ago
    Today I literally just finishes 2 months travelling around the area. I felt less safe in parts of France than in Barcelona.
snvzz 8y ago
I'm from there. It's not that bad, but not looking out of place helps considerably. There's not much violent crime, so just keep your wits about you; You'll be fine :)
confounded 8y ago
I never had any problems (or at least any worse problems than anywhere else). I’ve had worse problems in London, which has plenty of surveillance.

xondono 8y ago

I had come across this article before. I just wanted to add a little update. This “direct democracy” voting system has already been put to test. The citizens voted against Colau’s party proposals. The official comment is that they “will take that into account”, but controversial plans still go forward.

rgrieselhuber 8y ago

If you see the word “smart” in front of some object, there is a strong chance it will be used against you once you have come to depend on it.

femto 8y ago

The Catalan independence movement would be serving to overcome the apathy which would otherwise be present. A significant number of Barcelonans would be keen to limit the ability of Madrid to use information from the phone network to squash dissent.