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I question the knowledge behind this map. The text states it depicts the state of affairs before "the rise of Mongols", but one can find on it Sarai city which

I question the knowledge behind this map. The text states it depicts the state of affairs before "the rise of Mongols", but one can find on it Sarai city which was established by Mongols, and, for example, Arkhangelsk which didn't exist at those times either. Also some names are misspelled. Significant trade routes are omitted. No sources cited. Look too amateurish to me to take it seriously. Update: there is a list if sources on the picture itself, I tried to look for it in the text at first. However, it doesn't save the work from being evidently incorrect.

wereHamster 8y ago
> No sources cited. Sources are cited. Maybe we all should question your ability to read ;)
- 394852034 8y ago
  Where are you reading about sources. I can't seem to find any at all.
varjag 8y ago
Arkhangelsk is in quotes, suggesting it's some settlement at the same place without a known name.
- kingofhdds 8y ago
  "Some settlement" had it's proper name - Kholmogory, but it was anyway founded after Mongol invasion.
  - varjag 8y ago
    OK, I looked it up and it was Ivany-Pogost. A Novgorod settlement/trade outpost established in early 12th century. So the map is correct there.
    - kingofhdds 8y ago
      My sources tell the story this way: unknown village of Finnish-Ugric population -> Kholmogory (Novgorod outpost) -> Novokholmogory -> Arkhangelsk. I would be grateful if you share your source of information about alternative name. However, regardless the name, the place will not be a major trading center until establishment of regular sea route to England (when Ivan The Terrible granted trading privileges to English) which is XVI century. There was not a lot of sense in navigating Arctic waters to deliver those furs to the Western Europe before Swedes became rulers of North-Eastern Baltics and imposed tariffs. So map is not correct.
      - varjag 8y ago
        > С начала XII века на месте современных Холмогор располагался дальний новгородский «Ивани-Погост», впервые упомянутый в уставной грамоте Новгородского князя Святослава Ольговича 1138 года о поступлении дани с заволоческих владений. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Холмогоры https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Холмогоры
        kingofhdds 8y ago
        Thank you! It could be true, but frankly I wouldn't trust ru.wikipedia too blindly, especially when it comes to small towns history, because there are lots of local lore gatherers with original researches, and nobody cares to verify their contributions. I can't check the mentioned act of Sviatoslav now, that would require to search for a real paper book :) But I'm quite sure it should be 1137, not 1138 for starters.
      - Y_Y 8y ago
        What are your sources please?
      - v_lisivka 8y ago
        Ivany-Pogost means that it was inn kept by Ivany family. I.e. it was not a settlement.
        8y ago
MartinMansson 8y ago
Hello, i'm the author of the map. Sarai has been suggested to have existed before the mongols arrived, and was a strategic location on the route between europe and asia before the height of the "north" northern silk road. The reason for why Arkhangelsk is there has been explained by earlier replies. Names are misspelled. Sometimes it was my fingers that moved too fast, and sometimes i've experienced sources spelling names differently. If i have omitted significant trade routes i would be happy to receive some notice. This is a continuous passion project of mine, and i'm happy to improve it. I have already gotten a lot of good feedback, all from cities being placed in the wrong order to misspellings. The purpose of the map is to make it interesting and engaging for people to look at. It's also meant as a road map to navigate the trade/communication networks of the old world that you otherwise could only get from overly general maps. It's a mammoth task, and i appreciate all help i can get.
- kingofhdds 8y ago
  Hi Martin! I respect your effort, and welcome it, because I'm a lover, and collector of maps, actually. You certainly made a lot of work. However (and please don't take it personally) if it's not just a decoration, and you claim it has an educational value, then, sorry, it falls short of even most relaxed standards of accuracy. Let's imagine there was a native settlement in place of modern Washington D.C. Do you really believe it would be correct then to have Washington on a map, which depicts pre-Columbian America? There was no Arkhangelsk, there was no Sarai. There's quite an established (and supported by chronicles) understanding that the former was founded by wish of czar Ivan The Terrible, and latter by order of khan Batu. Both possibly were predated by earlier smaller settlements (although there's no sound evidence for this in relation to Sarai), but, at first, they weren't major trading centers (and that's why you don't know their names), and second, you cannot freely use names from the future without making your map a historic mess, having essentially anti-educational effect. So, it's a noble attempt, but as you said it's a mammoth work, and one have to chew a whole library of historical literature, and look at numerous historical atlases to make it good. Maybe, it's just a chunk too big to digest quickly. Maybe, it would be better to try to start from a smaller part of the world. Btw, crowdsourcing doesn't work in such cases well, because you would still need to verify suggestions, and chose between them. Also because maps are by their nature very politically loaded. Even a question of proper spelling can ignite serious conflicts, and offend a lot of people. I would like to encourage you to continue map making, but I suggest to start from a less ambitious project, and extend it gradually. And thank you for your calm response!

wereHamster 8y ago

> No sources cited. Sources are cited. Maybe we all should question your ability to read ;)

394852034 8y ago
Where are you reading about sources. I can't seem to find any at all.

varjag 8y ago

Arkhangelsk is in quotes, suggesting it's some settlement at the same place without a known name.

kingofhdds 8y ago
"Some settlement" had it's proper name - Kholmogory, but it was anyway founded after Mongol invasion.
- varjag 8y ago
  OK, I looked it up and it was Ivany-Pogost. A Novgorod settlement/trade outpost established in early 12th century. So the map is correct there.
  - kingofhdds 8y ago
    My sources tell the story this way: unknown village of Finnish-Ugric population -> Kholmogory (Novgorod outpost) -> Novokholmogory -> Arkhangelsk. I would be grateful if you share your source of information about alternative name. However, regardless the name, the place will not be a major trading center until establishment of regular sea route to England (when Ivan The Terrible granted trading privileges to English) which is XVI century. There was not a lot of sense in navigating Arctic waters to deliver those furs to the Western Europe before Swedes became rulers of North-Eastern Baltics and imposed tariffs. So map is not correct.
    - varjag 8y ago
      > С начала XII века на месте современных Холмогор располагался дальний новгородский «Ивани-Погост», впервые упомянутый в уставной грамоте Новгородского князя Святослава Ольговича 1138 года о поступлении дани с заволоческих владений. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Холмогоры https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Холмогоры
      - kingofhdds 8y ago
        Thank you! It could be true, but frankly I wouldn't trust ru.wikipedia too blindly, especially when it comes to small towns history, because there are lots of local lore gatherers with original researches, and nobody cares to verify their contributions. I can't check the mentioned act of Sviatoslav now, that would require to search for a real paper book :) But I'm quite sure it should be 1137, not 1138 for starters.
    - Y_Y 8y ago
      What are your sources please?
    - v_lisivka 8y ago
      Ivany-Pogost means that it was inn kept by Ivany family. I.e. it was not a settlement.
      - 8y ago

MartinMansson 8y ago

Hello, i'm the author of the map. Sarai has been suggested to have existed before the mongols arrived, and was a strategic location on the route between europe and asia before the height of the "north" northern silk road. The reason for why Arkhangelsk is there has been explained by earlier replies. Names are misspelled. Sometimes it was my fingers that moved too fast, and sometimes i've experienced sources spelling names differently. If i have omitted significant trade routes i would be happy to receive some notice. This is a continuous passion project of mine, and i'm happy to improve it. I have already gotten a lot of good feedback, all from cities being placed in the wrong order to misspellings. The purpose of the map is to make it interesting and engaging for people to look at. It's also meant as a road map to navigate the trade/communication networks of the old world that you otherwise could only get from overly general maps. It's a mammoth task, and i appreciate all help i can get.

kingofhdds 8y ago
Hi Martin! I respect your effort, and welcome it, because I'm a lover, and collector of maps, actually. You certainly made a lot of work. However (and please don't take it personally) if it's not just a decoration, and you claim it has an educational value, then, sorry, it falls short of even most relaxed standards of accuracy. Let's imagine there was a native settlement in place of modern Washington D.C. Do you really believe it would be correct then to have Washington on a map, which depicts pre-Columbian America? There was no Arkhangelsk, there was no Sarai. There's quite an established (and supported by chronicles) understanding that the former was founded by wish of czar Ivan The Terrible, and latter by order of khan Batu. Both possibly were predated by earlier smaller settlements (although there's no sound evidence for this in relation to Sarai), but, at first, they weren't major trading centers (and that's why you don't know their names), and second, you cannot freely use names from the future without making your map a historic mess, having essentially anti-educational effect. So, it's a noble attempt, but as you said it's a mammoth work, and one have to chew a whole library of historical literature, and look at numerous historical atlases to make it good. Maybe, it's just a chunk too big to digest quickly. Maybe, it would be better to try to start from a smaller part of the world. Btw, crowdsourcing doesn't work in such cases well, because you would still need to verify suggestions, and chose between them. Also because maps are by their nature very politically loaded. Even a question of proper spelling can ignite serious conflicts, and offend a lot of people. I would like to encourage you to continue map making, but I suggest to start from a less ambitious project, and extend it gradually. And thank you for your calm response!