4 ms·

Several Hundred Thousand Germans Opt Out of Google Street View

24 points by aj 16y ago

Kliment 16y ago
(note: I live in Germany) This never made sense to me. Prior to Street View, at least two German companies did the same thing (photographing every street with essentially the same technology,and putting it online). Noone complained. Now that Google is doing it, it's suddenly a huge privacy nightmare. I just don't understand.
- aj 16y ago
  I think it is more to do with the reputation that Google is gaining and also the fact that they already have a /tremendous/ amounts of information about their users and it is another part of that information collection drive which can and will be connected to the rest and thus making it much more comprehensive.
  - VMG 16y ago
    This, and irrational paranoia / german
- Sujan 16y ago
  Most of it is just misinformation. People think the images are realtime. They think you can move the camera to go to places and e.g. look into windows to see what your neighbour is doing right now. The other part is irrational fear. Fear that thieves will use 2 year old images to check out a house, fear that some potential employer won't hire them because you apartment complex looks shitty (Some Germans really like their house fronts - contrast that to the France that most don't care at all what it looks like from the outside, as ling as it's attractive from the inside). So yes, it's a German thing.
  - houseabsolute 16y ago
    It always fascinates me that any given action by a business, when seen through various cultural lenses, may appear sinister which to me is of the most innocuous variety. Working for Google, these differences in perception affect my daily life with unfortunate frequency.
  - coffeejunk 16y ago
    The problem is that it's a unhealthy mix of missinformation, summer slump politics and unreasonable fear, with a little dash of propaganda. One more thing: If a potential employer won't hire me, because the facade of the house i live in looks like a mess, I don't want to work for this employer. (The same thing is true for drunken Oktoberfest pictures on Facebook or whatnot.)
  - addywaddy 16y ago
    Let's say you own a motorhome/caravan and it's kept on your drive. To determine whether you are away on holiday or not, all I need to do is drive by your house and compare what I see with what Street View shows. I can take a 2hr drive through suburbia and draw up a nice list of homes whose residents are unlikely to be in when I come by again in the evening.
    - Sujan 16y ago
      I take a pizza flyer, put it in front of your door. If it's still there next morning, I'm safe to go into your flat. No Google needed.
- bartman 16y ago
  Could you link to the companies doing that? I never heard of them, even though I'm from Germany.
  - ugh 16y ago
    I only know http://sightwalk.de/ http://sightwalk.de/
  - nodata 16y ago
    ^^^ here is your reason. Nobody knew about the other companies. Everyone knows about Google doing it.
  - smcl 16y ago
    Das Telefonbuch have a system where you can look up someone's name in a town, and list their address and provide links to view satellite images of the street: http://www.dastelefonbuch.de/ http://www.dastelefonbuch.de/ If Germans were really more conscious of privacy then I suspect they'd be worried about this, but as previous posters have said it's more down to misinformation and exaggeration.
    - avar 16y ago
      Das Telefonbuch has aerial images, that's very different from street-level images on Google Street View.
      - evgen 16y ago
        Correct. Ariel images show you things that are not visible to a driver or pedestrian. Much bigger privacy risk if you actually thought about it for a second...
  - Kliment 16y ago
    As mentioned below, Sightwalk is one, I forget the other one. I hadn't heard of the other one before the Street View mess either, so I'm not too surprised. But as far as I'm aware, Sightwalk made it very public that they were doing this, and did not get much criticism at the time. Their optout method is nearly identical to the one Google is currently offering.
- Tichy 16y ago
  While talking about this with other people (also in Germany), I also learned that the government does regular flyovers (at least in some cities) and also sells the images they create. Much better insights than just glimpses from the streets.
- aw3c2 16y ago
  politicians and media are hyping it.
cschwarm 16y ago
To put things into perspective: Google has a 97% market share for search here in Germany, IIRC. Don't know the other numbers, but they are probably quite high for online video, too. Also, I'd say, people here don't have the blind faith, U.S. people seem to have concerning cooperations and free markets. Under these circumstances, it shouldn't be a surprise that Germans are reluctant to watch some large cooperation build another potential monopoly out of other people's "property" -- namely their privacy.
- ugh 16y ago
  That again? How can photographs taken from public places be your property? How do you have a right to stop anyone, including Google, from taking them?
  - cschwarm 16y ago
    Well, there are some different questions: First, do they have a right to use a camera mounted in a height above the normal eye level? Why should people be required to adjust the height of their fences to protect themselves from Google's view? Just because there are no laws against this yet, doens't mean Google has a right. Second, even if they have the right to make the photos, do they also have the right to automatically make them public? There's no human judgement involved, so who's responsible when Google camera catches you naked while sun-bathing in your own garden? Who can be sued for taking these images down and who's paying for the damage that is created while the photos were online? Third, do the have the right to connect the photos with street addresss so the views are searchable? This decreases search costs and your home will be public not just to bypassers, but to anyone. Who said, they are allowded to do that? And this is the point: They asked noone but just though they could act as if they are free do however they please. This may work in the U.S. but this doens't work here. Or, at least, that's not how it should work.
    - ugh 16y ago
      1. Three meters is not an unreasonable height, that’s about your eye height in a bus. People already don’t have a reasonable expectation of privacy from cameras that height. 2. They have the right to make them public. It’s right there in the law. And if something goes wrong you can sue Google - they are responsible, they have a German address and all. 3. It’s not illegal. You don’t have to ask anybody. Google can take photos in public and I don’t want anyone to take that right away from Google because at the same time my right to do the same is also taken away. Can’t you see that? You also seem to have a poor understanding of the current legislation in Germany.
c1sc0 16y ago
Premium-grade FUD, really interesting to observe (I live in Germany). What I find interesting is that while no direct legislative action is being taken by politicians on this front, they generate so much noise in the media that people are opting out all by themselves. Sneaky because you can't even actively arbitrage against this.
twoct 16y ago
I'm always amazed to see this come up again. (I do live there) The irrationality culminates when people are interviewed by local newspapers, which then put them in front of the or home in a huge image right above the article where they complain about the privacy issues they have with Google photographing their home. On a final note there is a short enjoyable parody od the situation from the leader of the political party THE PARTEI, about Google "Home View" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYMGkQTpODY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYMGkQTpODY) language is German, though I assume one can follow easily without knowing any German. I haven't found a transcript nor English version. :(
- hellrich 16y ago
  "DIE PARTEI" is no real party but an act of comedy / form of satire (they weren't allowed to participate in national elections).
Tichy 16y ago
"Nazis' Gestapo and the East German Stasi secret police" Ooops - it seems many people might not realize that Street View images are not live. There was also another statement in a newspaper here (Germany) where some police officers were considering if they could do virtual patrols. Misinformation leads to fear... I think in the long run, the opposite thing will be much more important: people will fight to be IN street view. If you are a shop owner, not being on street view will be a significant disadvantage. Not only will outdated pictures be a problem, but also the people living above your shop who opted out of Street View.
yellowbkpk 16y ago
This is a relevant blog post from Ed Parsons, one of the guys that Google pays to think and talk about Geo-related stuff: http://www.edparsons.com/2010/09/germany-doomed-never-to-innovate/ http://www.edparsons.com/2010/09/germany-doomed-never-to-inn...
senki 16y ago
We need an analogue of 'robots.txt' for the real world.
jhuckestein 16y ago
I'm currently in Germany. When I left the US everybody was talking about Google's net neutrality issues. In Germany those things were barely even mentioned. I think this alleged "street view scandal" covered up the whole net neutrality scandal (which IMHO is much more important).

24 points by aj 16y ago

(note: I live in Germany) This never made sense to me. Prior to Street View, at least two German companies did the same thing (photographing every street with essentially the same technology,and putting it online). Noone complained. Now that Google is doing it, it's suddenly a huge privacy nightmare. I just don't understand.

aj 16y ago
I think it is more to do with the reputation that Google is gaining and also the fact that they already have a /tremendous/ amounts of information about their users and it is another part of that information collection drive which can and will be connected to the rest and thus making it much more comprehensive.
- VMG 16y ago
  This, and irrational paranoia / german
Sujan 16y ago
Most of it is just misinformation. People think the images are realtime. They think you can move the camera to go to places and e.g. look into windows to see what your neighbour is doing right now. The other part is irrational fear. Fear that thieves will use 2 year old images to check out a house, fear that some potential employer won't hire them because you apartment complex looks shitty (Some Germans really like their house fronts - contrast that to the France that most don't care at all what it looks like from the outside, as ling as it's attractive from the inside). So yes, it's a German thing.
- houseabsolute 16y ago
  It always fascinates me that any given action by a business, when seen through various cultural lenses, may appear sinister which to me is of the most innocuous variety. Working for Google, these differences in perception affect my daily life with unfortunate frequency.
- coffeejunk 16y ago
  The problem is that it's a unhealthy mix of missinformation, summer slump politics and unreasonable fear, with a little dash of propaganda. One more thing: If a potential employer won't hire me, because the facade of the house i live in looks like a mess, I don't want to work for this employer. (The same thing is true for drunken Oktoberfest pictures on Facebook or whatnot.)
- addywaddy 16y ago
  Let's say you own a motorhome/caravan and it's kept on your drive. To determine whether you are away on holiday or not, all I need to do is drive by your house and compare what I see with what Street View shows. I can take a 2hr drive through suburbia and draw up a nice list of homes whose residents are unlikely to be in when I come by again in the evening.
  - Sujan 16y ago
    I take a pizza flyer, put it in front of your door. If it's still there next morning, I'm safe to go into your flat. No Google needed.
bartman 16y ago
Could you link to the companies doing that? I never heard of them, even though I'm from Germany.
- ugh 16y ago
  I only know http://sightwalk.de/ http://sightwalk.de/
- nodata 16y ago
  ^^^ here is your reason. Nobody knew about the other companies. Everyone knows about Google doing it.
- smcl 16y ago
  Das Telefonbuch have a system where you can look up someone's name in a town, and list their address and provide links to view satellite images of the street: http://www.dastelefonbuch.de/ http://www.dastelefonbuch.de/ If Germans were really more conscious of privacy then I suspect they'd be worried about this, but as previous posters have said it's more down to misinformation and exaggeration.
  - avar 16y ago
    Das Telefonbuch has aerial images, that's very different from street-level images on Google Street View.
    - evgen 16y ago
      Correct. Ariel images show you things that are not visible to a driver or pedestrian. Much bigger privacy risk if you actually thought about it for a second...
- Kliment 16y ago
  As mentioned below, Sightwalk is one, I forget the other one. I hadn't heard of the other one before the Street View mess either, so I'm not too surprised. But as far as I'm aware, Sightwalk made it very public that they were doing this, and did not get much criticism at the time. Their optout method is nearly identical to the one Google is currently offering.
Tichy 16y ago
While talking about this with other people (also in Germany), I also learned that the government does regular flyovers (at least in some cities) and also sells the images they create. Much better insights than just glimpses from the streets.
aw3c2 16y ago
politicians and media are hyping it.

cschwarm 16y ago

To put things into perspective: Google has a 97% market share for search here in Germany, IIRC. Don't know the other numbers, but they are probably quite high for online video, too. Also, I'd say, people here don't have the blind faith, U.S. people seem to have concerning cooperations and free markets. Under these circumstances, it shouldn't be a surprise that Germans are reluctant to watch some large cooperation build another potential monopoly out of other people's "property" -- namely their privacy.

ugh 16y ago
That again? How can photographs taken from public places be your property? How do you have a right to stop anyone, including Google, from taking them?
- cschwarm 16y ago
  Well, there are some different questions: First, do they have a right to use a camera mounted in a height above the normal eye level? Why should people be required to adjust the height of their fences to protect themselves from Google's view? Just because there are no laws against this yet, doens't mean Google has a right. Second, even if they have the right to make the photos, do they also have the right to automatically make them public? There's no human judgement involved, so who's responsible when Google camera catches you naked while sun-bathing in your own garden? Who can be sued for taking these images down and who's paying for the damage that is created while the photos were online? Third, do the have the right to connect the photos with street addresss so the views are searchable? This decreases search costs and your home will be public not just to bypassers, but to anyone. Who said, they are allowded to do that? And this is the point: They asked noone but just though they could act as if they are free do however they please. This may work in the U.S. but this doens't work here. Or, at least, that's not how it should work.
  - ugh 16y ago
    1. Three meters is not an unreasonable height, that’s about your eye height in a bus. People already don’t have a reasonable expectation of privacy from cameras that height. 2. They have the right to make them public. It’s right there in the law. And if something goes wrong you can sue Google - they are responsible, they have a German address and all. 3. It’s not illegal. You don’t have to ask anybody. Google can take photos in public and I don’t want anyone to take that right away from Google because at the same time my right to do the same is also taken away. Can’t you see that? You also seem to have a poor understanding of the current legislation in Germany.

c1sc0 16y ago

Premium-grade FUD, really interesting to observe (I live in Germany). What I find interesting is that while no direct legislative action is being taken by politicians on this front, they generate so much noise in the media that people are opting out all by themselves. Sneaky because you can't even actively arbitrage against this.

twoct 16y ago

I'm always amazed to see this come up again. (I do live there) The irrationality culminates when people are interviewed by local newspapers, which then put them in front of the or home in a huge image right above the article where they complain about the privacy issues they have with Google photographing their home. On a final note there is a short enjoyable parody od the situation from the leader of the political party THE PARTEI, about Google "Home View" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYMGkQTpODY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYMGkQTpODY) language is German, though I assume one can follow easily without knowing any German. I haven't found a transcript nor English version. :(

hellrich 16y ago
"DIE PARTEI" is no real party but an act of comedy / form of satire (they weren't allowed to participate in national elections).

Tichy 16y ago

"Nazis' Gestapo and the East German Stasi secret police" Ooops - it seems many people might not realize that Street View images are not live. There was also another statement in a newspaper here (Germany) where some police officers were considering if they could do virtual patrols. Misinformation leads to fear... I think in the long run, the opposite thing will be much more important: people will fight to be IN street view. If you are a shop owner, not being on street view will be a significant disadvantage. Not only will outdated pictures be a problem, but also the people living above your shop who opted out of Street View.

yellowbkpk 16y ago

This is a relevant blog post from Ed Parsons, one of the guys that Google pays to think and talk about Geo-related stuff: http://www.edparsons.com/2010/09/germany-doomed-never-to-innovate/ http://www.edparsons.com/2010/09/germany-doomed-never-to-inn...

senki 16y ago

We need an analogue of 'robots.txt' for the real world.

jhuckestein 16y ago

I'm currently in Germany. When I left the US everybody was talking about Google's net neutrality issues. In Germany those things were barely even mentioned. I think this alleged "street view scandal" covered up the whole net neutrality scandal (which IMHO is much more important).