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"The theory of evolution as an explanation of the origin of the major taxa of life really paints us into a corner from which it is difficult to wiggle out." Su

"The theory of evolution as an explanation of the origin of the major taxa of life really paints us into a corner from which it is difficult to wiggle out." Sure, it's easy to avoid corners when you can place them arbitrarily, or even move them when they're inconvenient.

TimTheTinker 8y ago
> place them arbitrarily, or even move them when they're inconvenient. I know others have been accused of that; I endeavor to maintain integrity.
- peteretep 8y ago
  This is ridiculous, and I'd also point out, despite my being atheist, that it's blasphemous. Monotheistic religions (almost all) believe in an omnipotent God. Omnipotent means that nothing binds the hand of God, at all. An omnipotent being can literally contrive any situation; they can change anything, from moment to moment, without leaving any traces whatsoever. They can change the very nature of logic itself without consequence. You are saying that you try to understand and talk about and reason about God inside of some kind of logical framework, where you can't just _deus ex machina_ your way out of any situation, but this explicitly binds the power of God. God and logic can't be combined, God and debate can't be combined, because both deny the omnipotent nature of God.
  - TimTheTinker 8y ago
    Speaking for Christianity, God's omnipotence does not mean he can violate his own nature. In fact, he is very limited in the sense that there are an infinite number of things that he cannot do because they are inconsistent with his nature -- his holiness, truth, love, and wisdom.
    - 0xBA5ED 8y ago
      This literally means that God is not "all powerful". And if there are things he is simply incapable of experiencing, this also means he is not "all knowing".
      - TimTheTinker 8y ago
        Yes it does mean that. However, he is "all powerful" where it matters - to accomplish his own will, which is consistent with his character.
        0xBA5ED 8y ago
        If he is controlled by "his nature", then it isn't HIS will.
        TimTheTinker 8y ago
        But it is his will to remain self-consistent, i.e. he cannot change and has no desire to do so. God is entirely different from us in that there is no contradiction anywhere in his person, nature, or work.
        0xBA5ED 8y ago
        You're saying that he chose to have no choice. This implies there was a point at which he had a choice, then chose to have no choice. Can you see how nonsensical this is?
        TimTheTinker 8y ago
        > He chose to have no choice I never said that. God’s existence and nature are eternal and outside of spacetime. Neither changes with time.
    - peteretep 8y ago
      > In fact, he is very limited in the sense That's blasphemy, and you take it upon yourself to interpret and understand His divine will, and second guess Him, despite being warned over and over that His will is beyond your understanding. Your comments are a textbook example of the type of human arrogance that gets Biblical characters unstuck, over and over and over again. > he is very limited in the sense that there are an infinite number of things that he cannot do I would be interested to see canonical scriptural references for this statement.
      - TimTheTinker 8y ago
        Not blasphemy, since these statements are proceeding directly from what God has said about himself in scripture. I’ll break out the Bible references and reply this evening. Cheers :-)
      - TimTheTinker 8y ago
        > you take it upon yourself to interpret and understand His divine will, and second guess Him God's complete will is absolutely beyond human understanding (as he is infinite), but deducing facts about him and his will based on what he has said about himself is not human arrogance or second-guessing him. It's just straightforward thinking. > I would be interested to see canonical scriptural references for this statement. Ok, got some direct scriptural examples of a few categories of things God cannot do, because they are inconsistent with his character. 1) God cannot lie. - Titus 1:2: "... in the hope of eternal life that God, who cannot lie, promised before time began" - Hebrews 6:18: "... so that through two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the hope set before us." 2) God cannot deny himself - 2 Timothy 2:13: "if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." This implies that he can't go against his own word or his own express will. 3) God cannot be tempted with evil and does not tempt anyone. - James 1:13: "No one undergoing a trial should say, 'I am being tempted by God.' For God is not tempted by evil, and He Himself doesn’t tempt anyone." --- This isn't to say he is restricted to doing only what he wants to do or actually does. Other passages refer to his ability to do things that he doesn't end up doing. One example is Matthew 3:9: "... God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones!" -- something he didn't do and never said he would. Please understand, AFAIK when the Scriptures speak of what God can't do, it's always meant as a comfort and encouragement to his people. E.g. from the above examples -- if he can't lie, deny himself, or be tempted with evil (much less do it), and if he is all-powerful to accomplish his holy will, then his words can be taken as rock-solid and trustworthy. [Quotations from the HCSB translation.]

TimTheTinker 8y ago

> place them arbitrarily, or even move them when they're inconvenient. I know others have been accused of that; I endeavor to maintain integrity.

peteretep 8y ago
This is ridiculous, and I'd also point out, despite my being atheist, that it's blasphemous. Monotheistic religions (almost all) believe in an omnipotent God. Omnipotent means that nothing binds the hand of God, at all. An omnipotent being can literally contrive any situation; they can change anything, from moment to moment, without leaving any traces whatsoever. They can change the very nature of logic itself without consequence. You are saying that you try to understand and talk about and reason about God inside of some kind of logical framework, where you can't just _deus ex machina_ your way out of any situation, but this explicitly binds the power of God. God and logic can't be combined, God and debate can't be combined, because both deny the omnipotent nature of God.
- TimTheTinker 8y ago
  Speaking for Christianity, God's omnipotence does not mean he can violate his own nature. In fact, he is very limited in the sense that there are an infinite number of things that he cannot do because they are inconsistent with his nature -- his holiness, truth, love, and wisdom.
  - 0xBA5ED 8y ago
    This literally means that God is not "all powerful". And if there are things he is simply incapable of experiencing, this also means he is not "all knowing".
    - TimTheTinker 8y ago
      Yes it does mean that. However, he is "all powerful" where it matters - to accomplish his own will, which is consistent with his character.
      - 0xBA5ED 8y ago
        If he is controlled by "his nature", then it isn't HIS will.
        TimTheTinker 8y ago
        But it is his will to remain self-consistent, i.e. he cannot change and has no desire to do so. God is entirely different from us in that there is no contradiction anywhere in his person, nature, or work.
        0xBA5ED 8y ago
        You're saying that he chose to have no choice. This implies there was a point at which he had a choice, then chose to have no choice. Can you see how nonsensical this is?
        TimTheTinker 8y ago
        > He chose to have no choice I never said that. God’s existence and nature are eternal and outside of spacetime. Neither changes with time.
  - peteretep 8y ago
    > In fact, he is very limited in the sense That's blasphemy, and you take it upon yourself to interpret and understand His divine will, and second guess Him, despite being warned over and over that His will is beyond your understanding. Your comments are a textbook example of the type of human arrogance that gets Biblical characters unstuck, over and over and over again. > he is very limited in the sense that there are an infinite number of things that he cannot do I would be interested to see canonical scriptural references for this statement.
    - TimTheTinker 8y ago
      Not blasphemy, since these statements are proceeding directly from what God has said about himself in scripture. I’ll break out the Bible references and reply this evening. Cheers :-)
    - TimTheTinker 8y ago
      > you take it upon yourself to interpret and understand His divine will, and second guess Him God's complete will is absolutely beyond human understanding (as he is infinite), but deducing facts about him and his will based on what he has said about himself is not human arrogance or second-guessing him. It's just straightforward thinking. > I would be interested to see canonical scriptural references for this statement. Ok, got some direct scriptural examples of a few categories of things God cannot do, because they are inconsistent with his character. 1) God cannot lie. - Titus 1:2: "... in the hope of eternal life that God, who cannot lie, promised before time began" - Hebrews 6:18: "... so that through two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the hope set before us." 2) God cannot deny himself - 2 Timothy 2:13: "if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." This implies that he can't go against his own word or his own express will. 3) God cannot be tempted with evil and does not tempt anyone. - James 1:13: "No one undergoing a trial should say, 'I am being tempted by God.' For God is not tempted by evil, and He Himself doesn’t tempt anyone." --- This isn't to say he is restricted to doing only what he wants to do or actually does. Other passages refer to his ability to do things that he doesn't end up doing. One example is Matthew 3:9: "... God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones!" -- something he didn't do and never said he would. Please understand, AFAIK when the Scriptures speak of what God can't do, it's always meant as a comfort and encouragement to his people. E.g. from the above examples -- if he can't lie, deny himself, or be tempted with evil (much less do it), and if he is all-powerful to accomplish his holy will, then his words can be taken as rock-solid and trustworthy. [Quotations from the HCSB translation.]