4 ms·

There is such an air of entitlement with open source these days. I guess more and more developers don't remember when all the coolest shit WASN'T free. You had

by qop 8y ago

There is such an air of entitlement with open source these days. I guess more and more developers don't remember when all the coolest shit WASN'T free. You had to pay for compilers, editors, manuals, etc. If someone writes a piece of software that you invest into your pipeline, understand that without some sort of contractual agreement, that person isn't OBLIGATED to maintain that code, much less give a shit about your feedback. Is Ken smug? Yes. Is this post full of insufferable little whiny points? Yes. But is Ken going to have to do what the python community wants wrt pipenv? Hell no. Granted, a lot of this conflict could've been done differently and with better tact, but the gritty fact of the situation is that no matter what happens, it's not his fault for giving away the work. Even if the whole world depended on a module, it's still a voluntary action.

scarface74 8y ago
I guess more and more developers don't remember when all the coolest shit WASN'T free. You had to pay for compilers, editors, manuals, etc. I've been a Microsoft developer my entire career of 20+ years and I remember starting out in the mid to late 90s after graduating from college and all of the tools you needed to learn you had to pay for. But because of both open source tools and the web, the need to develop "Windows Software" has declined precipitously. Microsoft has had to make a lot of their tooling free, open source and cross platform (Visual Studio Code and .Net Core) and even thier proprietary stuff has had to get much cheaper for small developers. Thier online hosted version of TFS - Visual Studio Team Services - interops with everything. I don't see myself leaving .Net for back end development. But, I don't have to pay the Windows tax anymore in terms of money or hardware resource requirements.
gkya 8y ago
I am not familiar with this particular situation, but while baseless entitlement is bad, criticism is good, and when you publish something with the intention that others use it---and reading his post it seems to me that what he does it not open sourcing a tool he made for himself, he wants people to use pipenv---you are no more the sole owner of it. More so if other people put effort (i.e. patches and bug reports and proposals) in to it. The OP says: > My response to this comment is — first off, my fame, while certainly categorized under “cult of personality” is not necessarily accidental. It’s called marketing. I worked very hard at becoming well known within the Python community, and toiled away at it for years. after quoting >> If only these people didn't advertise themselves as the next best thing to sliced bread, collecting undeserved fame, jobs, influence, and as consequence harming very large number of people and technology in general, I wouldn't mind them doing whatever projects they like. (w/o attribution, unfortunately), which shows that, if pipenv is a sub-par but popular solution (I did not ever use it), this latter quote may be a completely valid criticism. I am diverting from my point: if Ken wants and encourages the python community to use pipenv, then he might have to obey that community, and he better does. But if he's releasing pipenv just to give back to the community and share his solution to his problems with others, then you're right. After all, if the participants have no regards for each other, that's a bunch of selfish people, not a community.
- empath75 8y ago
  I don’t think there’s any such thing as a ‘python community’ and the vast majority of people that use python don’t know about any of this political bullshit.
legostormtroopr 8y ago
It’s not just open source though, because of his position Reitz had pipenv blessed by Heroku as the default and endorsed way to manage python packages as early as March. Reitz is (was?) a developer at Heroku and pushed it as the solution for paying customers. https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/python-support https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/python-support
- qop 8y ago
  So a decision heroku makes is something he has to be accountable for? He was a developer, he didn't run the joint. It was OSS before that. That's their problem, tbh.
  - legostormtroopr 8y ago
    Until April this year Reitz was “Python Overlord” at Heroku. When it came to Python he most certainly did “run the joint”
    - qop 8y ago
      You don't really think that, you're just being adversarial here. Heroku is not even a part of the equation of whether or not he's responsible for oss that he authored. No matter where he worked or any of that. It's not his problem that people are using his software and have committed themselves to have expectations over something they have no right to try and control.

by qop 8y ago

scarface74 8y ago

I guess more and more developers don't remember when all the coolest shit WASN'T free. You had to pay for compilers, editors, manuals, etc. I've been a Microsoft developer my entire career of 20+ years and I remember starting out in the mid to late 90s after graduating from college and all of the tools you needed to learn you had to pay for. But because of both open source tools and the web, the need to develop "Windows Software" has declined precipitously. Microsoft has had to make a lot of their tooling free, open source and cross platform (Visual Studio Code and .Net Core) and even thier proprietary stuff has had to get much cheaper for small developers. Thier online hosted version of TFS - Visual Studio Team Services - interops with everything. I don't see myself leaving .Net for back end development. But, I don't have to pay the Windows tax anymore in terms of money or hardware resource requirements.

gkya 8y ago

I am not familiar with this particular situation, but while baseless entitlement is bad, criticism is good, and when you publish something with the intention that others use it---and reading his post it seems to me that what he does it not open sourcing a tool he made for himself, he wants people to use pipenv---you are no more the sole owner of it. More so if other people put effort (i.e. patches and bug reports and proposals) in to it. The OP says: > My response to this comment is — first off, my fame, while certainly categorized under “cult of personality” is not necessarily accidental. It’s called marketing. I worked very hard at becoming well known within the Python community, and toiled away at it for years. after quoting >> If only these people didn't advertise themselves as the next best thing to sliced bread, collecting undeserved fame, jobs, influence, and as consequence harming very large number of people and technology in general, I wouldn't mind them doing whatever projects they like. (w/o attribution, unfortunately), which shows that, if pipenv is a sub-par but popular solution (I did not ever use it), this latter quote may be a completely valid criticism. I am diverting from my point: if Ken wants and encourages the python community to use pipenv, then he might have to obey that community, and he better does. But if he's releasing pipenv just to give back to the community and share his solution to his problems with others, then you're right. After all, if the participants have no regards for each other, that's a bunch of selfish people, not a community.

empath75 8y ago
I don’t think there’s any such thing as a ‘python community’ and the vast majority of people that use python don’t know about any of this political bullshit.

legostormtroopr 8y ago

It’s not just open source though, because of his position Reitz had pipenv blessed by Heroku as the default and endorsed way to manage python packages as early as March. Reitz is (was?) a developer at Heroku and pushed it as the solution for paying customers. https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/python-support https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/python-support

qop 8y ago
So a decision heroku makes is something he has to be accountable for? He was a developer, he didn't run the joint. It was OSS before that. That's their problem, tbh.
- legostormtroopr 8y ago
  Until April this year Reitz was “Python Overlord” at Heroku. When it came to Python he most certainly did “run the joint”
  - qop 8y ago
    You don't really think that, you're just being adversarial here. Heroku is not even a part of the equation of whether or not he's responsible for oss that he authored. No matter where he worked or any of that. It's not his problem that people are using his software and have committed themselves to have expectations over something they have no right to try and control.