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People who use choice to their advantage like the competition. Lazy people don't. That's fine, until the Lazy people conspire to take away the choice from the

People who use choice to their advantage like the competition. Lazy people don't. That's fine, until the Lazy people conspire to take away the choice from the rest of us. In the UK, we have people complaining about the price of power, however all you have to do is visit a site like uswitch.com, put in your details, and save hundreds, yet millions of people haven't done that, instead spending their energy complaining about the prices. The same with transport -- there's half a dozen ways to travel from say Edinburgh to London, including Planes, Train (multiple operators), Car, Taxi and Coaches. They all have pros and cons. But because people can't be bothered to either look up different options themselves, or go somewhere like trainsplit.com, there is a lot of pressure to "remove loopholes" like break of journey, split ticketing, slower but cheaper trains, etc, meaning those of us who do travel cheaply will lose out, because a few selfish lazy people can't be bothered to visit a website.

DanBC 8y ago
> But because people can't be bothered to either look up different options themselves, or go somewhere like trainsplit.com, there is a lot of pressure to "remove loopholes" like break of journey, split ticketing, slower but cheaper trains, etc, meaning those of us who do travel cheaply will lose out, because a few selfish lazy people can't be bothered to visit a website No. When you're planning a journey from London to Edinburgh you should be able to go to the national rail journey planner and get the cheapest ticket, the shortest travel time, and then first class options on top. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ You shouldn't need to go to a separate website to include weird options like split tickets, broken journeys, or alternate routes. These should all be built into the system. The reason these weird options exist is because the UK train ticketing system is so stupidly complicated.
- isostatic 8y ago
  The reality is that you'll go there, get the same choices as now, but those willing to do some research, or have more advanced requirements (say go Edinburgh to London, then come back via an overnight stop in Birmingham, and another one in Preston before going back to Edinburgh) will lose out. Prices for you aren't going to come down, but those of use that know what they're doing will lose out.
  - amaccuish 8y ago
    The thing is, the majority of journeys aren't like that. Right now, the majority lose out to cater for people with your travel habits. The system should cater for the majority first, who don't have time to look through terms and conditions to work out the cheapest prices. Also, people want to get from A to B the quickest. Taking longer, and possibly slower alternative routes is absolutely not an option, considering how our trains are already slow compared to most other nations anyway.
    - isostatic 8y ago
      How do the majority lose out? > Also, people want to get from A to B the quickest Clearly that's not right. Some people want to travel the quickest. Some want to travel the cheapest. Some want to travel in the most comfortable way. (OK everyone wants to travel at 125mph non stop from their local station to their destination, with a service every 5 minutes, for free. These changes aren't going to do that, they'll simply remove the choices that people have, and removing choice gives no benefit to the traveling public.)
      - amaccuish 8y ago
        I should have probably clarified, unless you're taking the train for fun, no one is going to divert for 6+ hours to get a cheaper ticket. I'm a student, none of us would, we'd just take the coach. We look to Europe and see how they have cheap, quick, comfortable, reliable trains, and then we look at ours... As multiple people have pointed out you seem to live in a dreamworld where everyone can sit down and work out pricing, and doesn't mind going slower or less comfortably. But here's a thought, what if it's possible to have all of those things at a reasonable price? That's the aim of such changes, by removing shareholders all profits can go back into improvements, just look at TfL. Travelling in London, while not 100% awesome, is still miles better than the rest of the country. I'm at uni in exeter, it's sometimes cheaper to fly from Yorkshire down there than take the train, that is absolutely ridiculous. You're the exception, not the rule my friend.
        8y ago
the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
People have better things to do than to minmax individual trips. They generally prefer being able to hop on the next train than to save a small amount of money.
- isostatic 8y ago
  And that's entirely their choice However I strongly suspect you're wrong -- people choose cheaper tickets all the time, they book specific trains in advance and they travel at non-business times of the day ("off-peak"), and they choose cheaper services (say 'virgin only' from Crewe to Manchester, rather than 'any permitted') This is good -- it allows you to make choices. Why would you want to take those choices away?
  - the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
    > However I strongly suspect you're wrong -- people choose cheaper tickets all the time, they book specific trains in advance We are talking urban transit here and not advance bookable trains. If given the choice of a 20% cheaper ticket but half the trains people would take the more frequent service. Why take the choice away? Because more operators means fewer trains/busses/trams per operator as the infrastructure is generally limited. So in urban areas shared ticketing is what customers prefer.
    - isostatic 8y ago
      > We are talking urban transit here and not advance bookable trains "The same with transport -- there's half a dozen ways to travel from say Edinburgh to London" That's not urban transport. > Why take the choice away? Because more operators means fewer trains/busses/trams per operator as the infrastructure is generally limited. So in urban areas shared ticketing is what customers prefer. In well run urban areas (like London) the competition comes from providers bidding to run the service, but the actual specification of the service including the conditions and ticketing, are done by the local authority. There are multiple bus operators in London, but most people don't realize that. The day to day choice comes down to choosing Bus vs Tube vs Bike vs Uber vs Taxi. In poorly run areas (like Manchester), the on-bus competition rarely exists, and when it does tickets aren't interchangable. > If given the choice of a 20% cheaper ticket but half the trains people would take the more frequent service. Some people would. You and I would, because we're highly paid IT professionals. Others wouldn't -- hence the reason that where direct commuting services do compete (say Milton Keynes to London), some buy flexible tickets, others buy "Virgin only" ones to save 15%.
pjc50 8y ago
>all you have to do is visit a site like uswitch.com, put in your details, and save hundreds So .. how exactly do the savings come about? The electricity comes from the same power stations. You're not buying it on the spot market. Literally the only thing the power companies do is billing. The only way they make a profit is through confusing pricing and market inertia. As someone else said, spending ages getting cheap tickets is only free if your time is worthless.
- isostatic 8y ago
  Currently you can spend a little time and make savings, and that's great. You don't like the customer service, you can vote with your wallet. You prefer to pay a premium for a fixed price for the next 2 years rather than gamble on the energy market, that's fine. You want money to be funneled to renewables, even if the price per unit is more expensive, that's fine.
DanBC 8y ago
I missed your power price comparison point earlier. It's not true that it's as simple as putting numbers in a price comparison website because energy companies use bafflement pricing. We know they use bafflement pricing because we need Tariff Comparison Rates so people can compare. Ignoring for a moment that some tenants can't change; some can change but are told they can't; some people in debt or on prepayment meters can't change; people with some smart meters have limited options; (this list is quite a few people who can't change) we are left with people who need to work out if they need cheap price per unit (but with a large standing order charge), or cheap standing order charge with a higher price per unit. The other two reasons we know it's not easy to switch are 1) OFGEM has to regulate the price comparison websites to prevent poor behaviour and 2) most people never switch. (I find it annoying g you've been downvoted. You're making points in good faith and not being rude.)

DanBC 8y ago

> But because people can't be bothered to either look up different options themselves, or go somewhere like trainsplit.com, there is a lot of pressure to "remove loopholes" like break of journey, split ticketing, slower but cheaper trains, etc, meaning those of us who do travel cheaply will lose out, because a few selfish lazy people can't be bothered to visit a website No. When you're planning a journey from London to Edinburgh you should be able to go to the national rail journey planner and get the cheapest ticket, the shortest travel time, and then first class options on top. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ You shouldn't need to go to a separate website to include weird options like split tickets, broken journeys, or alternate routes. These should all be built into the system. The reason these weird options exist is because the UK train ticketing system is so stupidly complicated.

isostatic 8y ago
The reality is that you'll go there, get the same choices as now, but those willing to do some research, or have more advanced requirements (say go Edinburgh to London, then come back via an overnight stop in Birmingham, and another one in Preston before going back to Edinburgh) will lose out. Prices for you aren't going to come down, but those of use that know what they're doing will lose out.
- amaccuish 8y ago
  The thing is, the majority of journeys aren't like that. Right now, the majority lose out to cater for people with your travel habits. The system should cater for the majority first, who don't have time to look through terms and conditions to work out the cheapest prices. Also, people want to get from A to B the quickest. Taking longer, and possibly slower alternative routes is absolutely not an option, considering how our trains are already slow compared to most other nations anyway.
  - isostatic 8y ago
    How do the majority lose out? > Also, people want to get from A to B the quickest Clearly that's not right. Some people want to travel the quickest. Some want to travel the cheapest. Some want to travel in the most comfortable way. (OK everyone wants to travel at 125mph non stop from their local station to their destination, with a service every 5 minutes, for free. These changes aren't going to do that, they'll simply remove the choices that people have, and removing choice gives no benefit to the traveling public.)
    - amaccuish 8y ago
      I should have probably clarified, unless you're taking the train for fun, no one is going to divert for 6+ hours to get a cheaper ticket. I'm a student, none of us would, we'd just take the coach. We look to Europe and see how they have cheap, quick, comfortable, reliable trains, and then we look at ours... As multiple people have pointed out you seem to live in a dreamworld where everyone can sit down and work out pricing, and doesn't mind going slower or less comfortably. But here's a thought, what if it's possible to have all of those things at a reasonable price? That's the aim of such changes, by removing shareholders all profits can go back into improvements, just look at TfL. Travelling in London, while not 100% awesome, is still miles better than the rest of the country. I'm at uni in exeter, it's sometimes cheaper to fly from Yorkshire down there than take the train, that is absolutely ridiculous. You're the exception, not the rule my friend.
      - 8y ago

the_mitsuhiko 8y ago

People have better things to do than to minmax individual trips. They generally prefer being able to hop on the next train than to save a small amount of money.

isostatic 8y ago
And that's entirely their choice However I strongly suspect you're wrong -- people choose cheaper tickets all the time, they book specific trains in advance and they travel at non-business times of the day ("off-peak"), and they choose cheaper services (say 'virgin only' from Crewe to Manchester, rather than 'any permitted') This is good -- it allows you to make choices. Why would you want to take those choices away?
- the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
  > However I strongly suspect you're wrong -- people choose cheaper tickets all the time, they book specific trains in advance We are talking urban transit here and not advance bookable trains. If given the choice of a 20% cheaper ticket but half the trains people would take the more frequent service. Why take the choice away? Because more operators means fewer trains/busses/trams per operator as the infrastructure is generally limited. So in urban areas shared ticketing is what customers prefer.
  - isostatic 8y ago
    > We are talking urban transit here and not advance bookable trains "The same with transport -- there's half a dozen ways to travel from say Edinburgh to London" That's not urban transport. > Why take the choice away? Because more operators means fewer trains/busses/trams per operator as the infrastructure is generally limited. So in urban areas shared ticketing is what customers prefer. In well run urban areas (like London) the competition comes from providers bidding to run the service, but the actual specification of the service including the conditions and ticketing, are done by the local authority. There are multiple bus operators in London, but most people don't realize that. The day to day choice comes down to choosing Bus vs Tube vs Bike vs Uber vs Taxi. In poorly run areas (like Manchester), the on-bus competition rarely exists, and when it does tickets aren't interchangable. > If given the choice of a 20% cheaper ticket but half the trains people would take the more frequent service. Some people would. You and I would, because we're highly paid IT professionals. Others wouldn't -- hence the reason that where direct commuting services do compete (say Milton Keynes to London), some buy flexible tickets, others buy "Virgin only" ones to save 15%.

pjc50 8y ago

>all you have to do is visit a site like uswitch.com, put in your details, and save hundreds So .. how exactly do the savings come about? The electricity comes from the same power stations. You're not buying it on the spot market. Literally the only thing the power companies do is billing. The only way they make a profit is through confusing pricing and market inertia. As someone else said, spending ages getting cheap tickets is only free if your time is worthless.

isostatic 8y ago
Currently you can spend a little time and make savings, and that's great. You don't like the customer service, you can vote with your wallet. You prefer to pay a premium for a fixed price for the next 2 years rather than gamble on the energy market, that's fine. You want money to be funneled to renewables, even if the price per unit is more expensive, that's fine.

DanBC 8y ago

I missed your power price comparison point earlier. It's not true that it's as simple as putting numbers in a price comparison website because energy companies use bafflement pricing. We know they use bafflement pricing because we need Tariff Comparison Rates so people can compare. Ignoring for a moment that some tenants can't change; some can change but are told they can't; some people in debt or on prepayment meters can't change; people with some smart meters have limited options; (this list is quite a few people who can't change) we are left with people who need to work out if they need cheap price per unit (but with a large standing order charge), or cheap standing order charge with a higher price per unit. The other two reasons we know it's not easy to switch are 1) OFGEM has to regulate the price comparison websites to prevent poor behaviour and 2) most people never switch. (I find it annoying g you've been downvoted. You're making points in good faith and not being rude.)