5 ms·

Instead of the 'park it anywhere and inconvenience everyone else model' of deployment, the dockless scooter companies should advocate for dockless scooter dedic

by jpao79 8y ago

Instead of the 'park it anywhere and inconvenience everyone else model' of deployment, the dockless scooter companies should advocate for dockless scooter dedicated parking spots/landing zones around the city. The dockless scooter companies should negotiate (and pay a daily fee to) the cities to convert say every 100th car parking spot into a dedicated spot to park your scooter/bike. I think this would be fair as one existing car parking spot could serve 10-20 dockeless scooters/bikes [1]. And it would require no effort other than repainting the parking spots and the city revenue (i.e $20 per day per spot) would be about the same if not slightly more. [1] https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/06/bike-share-dock-parking-space-citi-bike-new-york/531936/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/06/bike-share-do... [additional edit] Or alternatively, the city could just mark/paint out dedicated spots on the existing sidewalk that are currently underutilized (i.e. out of the way of existing pedestrian traffic) and that ends up leading to more city revenue in addition to car parking.

jseliger 8y ago
I agree in theory but loss aversion: https://www.behavioraleconomics.com/mini-encyclopedia-of-be/loss-aversion/ https://www.behavioraleconomics.com/mini-encyclopedia-of-be/... indicates that most people won't want to convert one car parking spot into 10 bike parking spots or 20 scooter parking spots until after people have realized how convenient and fast alternatives are. That, combined with status-quo bias and city bureaucracy, is a major problem. In the meantime, vast numbers of large dockless vehicles continue to be a problem in the U.S.: https://slate.com/business/2018/04/astounding-photos-capture-graveyards-of-unused-dockless-vehicles-in-american-cities.html https://slate.com/business/2018/04/astounding-photos-capture...
- jpao79 8y ago
  'Most people won't want to convert one car parking spot' >> I guess then it comes down to who decides the parking spot allocation rules. Politicians/city managers who are accountable to city residents? I'd imagine a lot of car drivers are people coming in from the suburbs outside the city who do not have voting rights, whereas bike/scooter riders are more likely to be local and could vote in the city elections. >> Or alternatively, the city could just mark/paint out dedicated spots on the existing sidewalk that are currently underutilized (i.e. out of the way of existing pedestrian traffic) and that ends up with more city revenue. Plus with dedicated spots, the scooter charging team then can further optimizing the daily charging routes.
tlrobinson 8y ago
Are these things really much of an inconvenience to you? The vast majority of the ones I've seen are parked in reasonable locations. This could be further improved by better education of users, requiring the user take a photo of their parking job, easily allowing other people to submit complaints, and warning then banning repeat offenders.
- jpao79 8y ago
  It doesn't bother me specifically, but I've only seen it in the context of a wide boulevard (i.e. along the Embaracadero in SF). Its more to address the potential complaints and potential issues in say the Mission. There's also the tangential benefit of there being an increasing likelihood, I'll have access to a scooter if they are all clustered in the same spot. It's a much easier fleet management on the backend as well, maybe some machine learning prediction of where more scooters are needed throughout the day could be applied.
- rectang 8y ago
  It irritates people to have brightly colored bike-shaped ads strewn about residential, non-commercial neighborhoods.
  - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
    And this is different from brightly colored car-shaped ads how?
    - rectang 8y ago
      They're novel. They are in unexpected places such as sidewalks, rather thank locked up like basically any privately owned bicycle. Depending on the neighborhood, there may be no car-shaped ads at all.
kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
Self-driving scooters/segways dock themselves.
ggg9990 8y ago
That turns it into an effectively docked scooter. It’s been tried and isn’t terrible, but not as beloved as true dockless.
- jpao79 8y ago
  I think it solves the major issues with docked scooters/bikes which is the infrastructure cost of installing the large docking stations which increases the rollout costs. This artificially creates a monopoly on bike sharing in a given city. It also limits the number of stations that can cost effectively exist.
  - ggg9990 8y ago
    Two big problems with docked remain with “pseudodocked” — 1) need to get approval to eliminate a parking space and 2) users have to walk a bit at the start and/or end of the journey.
dcosson 8y ago
I think you dramatically underestimate how difficult that would be. What incentive does the city have to sit down with them and take them seriously? Inevitably some people will complain about the scooters, even if they're in the road and not on the sidewalk. The problem is you can't have both sides of the argument represented before people even know about the scooters and have been able to see whether or not they're useful. Permissionless innovation makes possible all kinds of improvements that would never gain enough momentum to get off the ground otherwise. (Also, to push back on your argument about the fee part - most of the city has free street parking. Why should scooter companies pay to let people park scooters there when cars weren't paying previously? In the ideal scenario you're proposing, we should just get rid of some street parking to make room for other uses. Let's start cutting down on the massive amount of money we spend subsidizing car ownership.)
- jpao79 8y ago
  Agreed, following the SV mantra of work under the radar to prove the business model until the cities legislate a la Uber/Airbnb, this makes sense (and seems to be the path chosen). The paid dedicated scooter parking zones would be the fallback option if the city puts forth a plan to outright ban dockless scooters or the scooter companies want to start playing nicely proactively. "In the ideal scenario you're proposing, we should just get rid of some street parking to make room for other uses. Let's start cutting down on the massive amount of money we spend subsidizing car ownership." >> Yup agree - maybe start putting car parking meters up where there is free car parking and use that money to repaint some of the spots for dockless bikes/scooter parking zones!
saurik 8y ago
Everyone is telling you "this is a dumb idea that will never work", but that is effectively what we are doing her every in Isla Vista, CA. The County Public Works department has decided on some red curbed locations that they are willing to convert into dockless bike storage regions, the nearby University is making all of their existing bike rack areas be viable options, and everyone is trying to coordinate with the local Recreation & Park District to get some locations inside of parks.

by jpao79 8y ago

jseliger 8y ago

I agree in theory but loss aversion: https://www.behavioraleconomics.com/mini-encyclopedia-of-be/loss-aversion/ https://www.behavioraleconomics.com/mini-encyclopedia-of-be/... indicates that most people won't want to convert one car parking spot into 10 bike parking spots or 20 scooter parking spots until after people have realized how convenient and fast alternatives are. That, combined with status-quo bias and city bureaucracy, is a major problem. In the meantime, vast numbers of large dockless vehicles continue to be a problem in the U.S.: https://slate.com/business/2018/04/astounding-photos-capture-graveyards-of-unused-dockless-vehicles-in-american-cities.html https://slate.com/business/2018/04/astounding-photos-capture...

jpao79 8y ago
'Most people won't want to convert one car parking spot' >> I guess then it comes down to who decides the parking spot allocation rules. Politicians/city managers who are accountable to city residents? I'd imagine a lot of car drivers are people coming in from the suburbs outside the city who do not have voting rights, whereas bike/scooter riders are more likely to be local and could vote in the city elections. >> Or alternatively, the city could just mark/paint out dedicated spots on the existing sidewalk that are currently underutilized (i.e. out of the way of existing pedestrian traffic) and that ends up with more city revenue. Plus with dedicated spots, the scooter charging team then can further optimizing the daily charging routes.

tlrobinson 8y ago

Are these things really much of an inconvenience to you? The vast majority of the ones I've seen are parked in reasonable locations. This could be further improved by better education of users, requiring the user take a photo of their parking job, easily allowing other people to submit complaints, and warning then banning repeat offenders.

jpao79 8y ago
It doesn't bother me specifically, but I've only seen it in the context of a wide boulevard (i.e. along the Embaracadero in SF). Its more to address the potential complaints and potential issues in say the Mission. There's also the tangential benefit of there being an increasing likelihood, I'll have access to a scooter if they are all clustered in the same spot. It's a much easier fleet management on the backend as well, maybe some machine learning prediction of where more scooters are needed throughout the day could be applied.
rectang 8y ago
It irritates people to have brightly colored bike-shaped ads strewn about residential, non-commercial neighborhoods.
- ryanwaggoner 8y ago
  And this is different from brightly colored car-shaped ads how?
  - rectang 8y ago
    They're novel. They are in unexpected places such as sidewalks, rather thank locked up like basically any privately owned bicycle. Depending on the neighborhood, there may be no car-shaped ads at all.

kevin_thibedeau 8y ago

Self-driving scooters/segways dock themselves.

ggg9990 8y ago

That turns it into an effectively docked scooter. It’s been tried and isn’t terrible, but not as beloved as true dockless.

jpao79 8y ago
I think it solves the major issues with docked scooters/bikes which is the infrastructure cost of installing the large docking stations which increases the rollout costs. This artificially creates a monopoly on bike sharing in a given city. It also limits the number of stations that can cost effectively exist.
- ggg9990 8y ago
  Two big problems with docked remain with “pseudodocked” — 1) need to get approval to eliminate a parking space and 2) users have to walk a bit at the start and/or end of the journey.

dcosson 8y ago

I think you dramatically underestimate how difficult that would be. What incentive does the city have to sit down with them and take them seriously? Inevitably some people will complain about the scooters, even if they're in the road and not on the sidewalk. The problem is you can't have both sides of the argument represented before people even know about the scooters and have been able to see whether or not they're useful. Permissionless innovation makes possible all kinds of improvements that would never gain enough momentum to get off the ground otherwise. (Also, to push back on your argument about the fee part - most of the city has free street parking. Why should scooter companies pay to let people park scooters there when cars weren't paying previously? In the ideal scenario you're proposing, we should just get rid of some street parking to make room for other uses. Let's start cutting down on the massive amount of money we spend subsidizing car ownership.)

jpao79 8y ago
Agreed, following the SV mantra of work under the radar to prove the business model until the cities legislate a la Uber/Airbnb, this makes sense (and seems to be the path chosen). The paid dedicated scooter parking zones would be the fallback option if the city puts forth a plan to outright ban dockless scooters or the scooter companies want to start playing nicely proactively. "In the ideal scenario you're proposing, we should just get rid of some street parking to make room for other uses. Let's start cutting down on the massive amount of money we spend subsidizing car ownership." >> Yup agree - maybe start putting car parking meters up where there is free car parking and use that money to repaint some of the spots for dockless bikes/scooter parking zones!

saurik 8y ago

Everyone is telling you "this is a dumb idea that will never work", but that is effectively what we are doing her every in Isla Vista, CA. The County Public Works department has decided on some red curbed locations that they are willing to convert into dockless bike storage regions, the nearby University is making all of their existing bike rack areas be viable options, and everyone is trying to coordinate with the local Recreation & Park District to get some locations inside of parks.