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> If you have better options, take them. > This job board is the ultimate culmination of millennial passive-aggressive behavior. This job board just enables m

• jimmy1 8y ago
  I will admit, maybe I am reading too much into the convictions or intentions of the job boards -- but we all are human, so I can only assume this was created by someone who was tired of having to do whiteboards, and rather than confront the problem head on and potentially drive industry-wide change (channeling "one person can change the world"), goes behind the scenes. The job board further fragments and confuses things for everyone. The better option, of course in my opinion, is make things better for everyone by fighting the battle where the companies are. I am frustrated at times just as much as any other engineer by playing "monkey-see-monkey-do" in front of an audience in order to receive employment and I have indeed passed up job offers because I was turned off by the interview process (but again, that was my choice) but if you take a step back, look at the overall job market, and what other workers have to go through to get a job, we really do have it made, and this seems like a minor nuisance at best.
  • sanderjd 8y ago
    > rather than confront the problem head on and potentially drive industry-wide change (channeling "one person can change the world"), goes behind the scenes. No, this is how change is driven. How do you think change happens? Getting a big committee together and getting buy in from all interested parties? That's not how it works. But maybe this is how it works, maybe this job board attracts a bunch of candidates who are tired of the status quo, and other candidates start telling the companies on other job boards that, sorry, but they're more interested in the companies that list on this particular job board, and those companies then see that the talent pool they're drawing from is smaller than it needs to be, and they decide they want to draw from the larger pool, so they change their practices, and then that snowballs, well maybe now you have industry-wide change. I don't personally see this having much of an impact, but I think the people who started this are doing exactly what you're saying they should be doing, except that you're pillorying them for it because they aren't doing it through some impossible broad consensus approach. > what other workers have to go through to get a job, we really do have it made, and this seems like a minor nuisance at best It is true that we have it made, but I do not think it is true that we have it made in this sense. We have it made because our skills are very highly in demand and because of that, we are treated well and paid handsomely once we get a job. It is true that we should never ignore, down-play, or fail to appreciate this privilege, but that doesn't imply that we should not discuss or advocate for improvements where needed. Where we don't have it made is in the predictability of employment once competence has been demonstrated. Other professions and trades usually have long-and-tedious up-front competence proving phases, but then they have a credential that will be respected by future employers when they have open positions. We are fairly unique in forcing people with long and distinguished careers to continually re-prove themselves. Our employers have open positions, but it takes a lot of pointless and duplicated busy-work for a competent person to slot into them. I think what it comes down to is that our process is relatively mediocre, good, or even great for inexperienced unproven new entrants to the job market, but rather sub-par for experienced and proven folks. And that's why you see people looking for a better way.
    • doorbumper 8y ago
      I think there's two different complaints at play in this thread. Surely you're not suggesting that candidates be exempt from proving themselves. The number of developers who become incompetent over time is high. I think the question is whether they should prove themselves through algorithmic questions. I'll never higher anyone just because they have credentials. A Computer Science degree is a credential, yet so many with that credential cannot write the simplest of programs.
      • sanderjd 8y ago
        It's probably too late to come back to this thread, but no, I'm not talking about the narrower but more common complaint about algorithmic questions. I think the entire approach of constant proving is misguided. There are lots of other ways to do this with lots of prior art in other industries. I believe we have landed on a poor but self-perpetuating solution. What we do to hire is akin to what they do in the performing arts, but our work is entirely dissimilar. Do mechanical engineers draw up a design for a valve or something at every job they apply for?
  • spraak 8y ago
    I don't understand, what does confronting the problem head on look like to you? Or how is creating a job board like this not such a solution?
    • jimmy1 8y ago
      This might sound silly -- especially to the HN audience -- but it's akin to the baptist church problem: one group doesn't like their senior pastor, so they take about half the congregation, go down the street, and say "we will do it right this time!" and now you end up with two split churches. This is basically why there are thousands of baptist churches in the south. Another example it's related to is the XKCD standards comic. Rather than improve existing standards, the committee breaks off with dissenters, forms a new committee, and now you get "Situation: There are now 16 competing standards" edit: Better Solution? Talk to recruiters? Let them know you won't consider places that force you to play "dance monkey". The letting them know part is key. More broadly: maybe unionize?
      • spraak 8y ago
        OK, that makes sense... but what is a better solution?