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That's all nice. The issue though is that BOSH has been completely leapfrogged by Kubernetes with its extensible API. Nowhere will BOSH ever get to the communit

That's all nice. The issue though is that BOSH has been completely leapfrogged by Kubernetes with its extensible API. Nowhere will BOSH ever get to the community reach and acceptance of the level of Kubernetes. That Boat has sailed. And with implementations of the machine specs [0,1,2,3] you get rid of the "media break" that you deem BOSH is filling (it is not). Maybe you could implement BOSH as implementation of the machine spec and integrate into K8s, the other way round than KuBo? As for the bunch of data services, I guess it's only a matter of time until you see a cambrian explosion of productive operators. I mean this non-comprehensive list [4] is already impressive. SAP works in many projects where obligations with long term commitments have to be kept. And that is ok. BOSH CPI is one experiment to get CF on K8s. Have a look at the one which seems more attainable [6]. But these activities are an indicator of the elephant in the room, namely CF & K8s: Will it blend? [5] I work for SAP in the inter-junction of SaaS, PaaS & IaaS and K8s. [0] https://github.com/kubernetes-sigs/cluster-api https://github.com/kubernetes-sigs/cluster-api [1] https://github.com/kube-node/nodeset https://github.com/kube-node/nodeset [2] https://github.com/gardener/machine-controller-manager https://github.com/gardener/machine-controller-manager [3] https://github.com/kubeup/archon https://github.com/kubeup/archon [4] https://github.com/operator-framework/awesome-operators https://github.com/operator-framework/awesome-operators [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ow7IumxkOM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ow7IumxkOM [6] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qs6UQQDWMkfOpY19XqS3CfvI00jCns876TjplJ6E95s/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qs6UQQDWMkfOpY19XqS3CfvI...

jacques_chester 8y ago
It may surprise you to learn that I disagree about your core thesis. My qualifications are working for Pivotal at the inter-junction of PaaS, CaaS and FaaS. IaaS is just a hobby. > Maybe you could implement BOSH as implementation of the machine spec and integrate into K8s, the other way round than KuBo? This is being investigated too. The main difficulty (as Brendan Burns has noted for virtual kubelet) has been that Kubernetes, ostensibly providing a smooth abstraction away from machines, actually has layer-breaking assumptions about the existence machines after all. Cloud Foundry always had BOSH to insulate it from that concern. But BOSH-on-K8s was not super pretty in the early days, because they had overlapping concerns (mostly disks, I believe). Kubernetes-on-BOSH is a natural fit. Standing up large distributed systems on IaaSes is BOSH's bread and butter. More to the point, that is its sole focus. Its mission is not spread amongst a cambrian explosion of alternatives (almost all of whom, you may recall, went extinct). But in any case, it's doable. Which has the nice property that as the cluster API matures, BOSH will happily take workloads that run on VMs and run them on pods. The same experience we have today -- run an upgrade, everything is upgraded, nobody bats an eye -- will be exactly the same. > But these activities are an indicator of the elephant in the room, namely CF & K8s: Will it blend? If you look at the community activity, the answer is pretty clearly yes: Diego can be placed behind an OPI (Project Eirini) and CF itself can run control-plane components in containers instead of VMs. Personally I am all for it. But as you pointed out, enterprise vendors need to keep their word. Adopting Kubernetes isn't a button-press operation. We need to prove that CF-on-K8s is at least as safe and performant as CF-on-Diego has been. Your customers, and Pivotal's customers, and IBM's customers, and SUSE's customers, expect all of us to provide the roadmap and prove that it is something they can bet a company on.

jacques_chester 8y ago

It may surprise you to learn that I disagree about your core thesis. My qualifications are working for Pivotal at the inter-junction of PaaS, CaaS and FaaS. IaaS is just a hobby. > Maybe you could implement BOSH as implementation of the machine spec and integrate into K8s, the other way round than KuBo? This is being investigated too. The main difficulty (as Brendan Burns has noted for virtual kubelet) has been that Kubernetes, ostensibly providing a smooth abstraction away from machines, actually has layer-breaking assumptions about the existence machines after all. Cloud Foundry always had BOSH to insulate it from that concern. But BOSH-on-K8s was not super pretty in the early days, because they had overlapping concerns (mostly disks, I believe). Kubernetes-on-BOSH is a natural fit. Standing up large distributed systems on IaaSes is BOSH's bread and butter. More to the point, that is its sole focus. Its mission is not spread amongst a cambrian explosion of alternatives (almost all of whom, you may recall, went extinct). But in any case, it's doable. Which has the nice property that as the cluster API matures, BOSH will happily take workloads that run on VMs and run them on pods. The same experience we have today -- run an upgrade, everything is upgraded, nobody bats an eye -- will be exactly the same. > But these activities are an indicator of the elephant in the room, namely CF & K8s: Will it blend? If you look at the community activity, the answer is pretty clearly yes: Diego can be placed behind an OPI (Project Eirini) and CF itself can run control-plane components in containers instead of VMs. Personally I am all for it. But as you pointed out, enterprise vendors need to keep their word. Adopting Kubernetes isn't a button-press operation. We need to prove that CF-on-K8s is at least as safe and performant as CF-on-Diego has been. Your customers, and Pivotal's customers, and IBM's customers, and SUSE's customers, expect all of us to provide the roadmap and prove that it is something they can bet a company on.