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> Desktop applications are incredibly risky, far more so than iOS mobile apps are. Ok, I'll play. I get to choose 10 arbitrary apps from the Apple App store f

> Desktop applications are incredibly risky, far more so than iOS mobile apps are. Ok, I'll play. I get to choose 10 arbitrary apps from the Apple App store for you to install on an Iphone model of your choice. You get to choose 10 arbitrary apps for me to install from the default Debian repos (which I believe excludes nonfree). Let's say Sid to make it interesting. Who is going to be in worse shape after installing those apps? Edit: typo

tptacek 8y ago
You will be in worse shape than I will be. It's possible, in that insane proposition, that your Debian machine will be conceding remote code execution to the whole Internet, while my phone will just have some crappy apps on the home screen.
- RVuRnvbM2e 8y ago
  Doesn't that answer assume some or all of the following? a) Apple does a better job reviewing apps than Debian maintainers do. b) iPhone app code is better quality than Debian packages. c) iOS sandboxing is better than Linux. Default configuration may mean c) is true. However not if you use wayland, apparmor, seccomp, namespaces etc. What do you think about a) and b)?
  - tptacek 8y ago
    The question wasn't whether they could write an elaborate seccomp policy to contain any given Debian package. I just got to pick 10 of them, and install them.
  - tedunangst 8y ago
    The beep local root suggests the Debian review system has room to improve. It's a pretty deep barrel. You're sure there's no crud at the bottom?
    - zaarn 8y ago
      beepmargeddon is a local privilege exploit, not a RCE. I'm not aware of any debian package (I don't use debian that often though so mind that) that A) installs a network service and B) uses unsafe defaults while C) activating the service on boot by default
    - belorn 8y ago
      How is the beep local root different from jail breaks in the past? Seems both are local privilege exploit, and I recall seeing that iphone has had a long list of those in the past.
    - jancsika 8y ago
      Hi Ted, Oh wow, is there ever crud at the bottom. Yesterday I apt-get install'd probably 5 such cruds just to record a small rectangle on my desktop. TBH I did this after apt-get install'ing 3 other animated-gif related cruds to do simple motion animation, then just gave up and used the half-baked Web Animations API in devtools of Firefox because it was easier and better documented than anything else I could find. That's 8 total cruds written by who-knows, maintained by whoever, audited probably-never by no-one. Also, they pulled in various dependencies I didn't pay the faintest attention to. How many of those 8 apps would you estimate sent my email contacts to a third party upon instantiation? How many of those 8 apps would you estimate gathered various pieces of data to fingerprint my device? How many keep gathering data from every sensor source they can poll every time I run and use the app? How many of those 8 apps would you estimate even touched the network at all? Now let's suppose I download 8 cruds on iOS just as mindlessly as I did here. Do you think the answers to those questions will be different?
      - pvg 8y ago
        You should try to think of some specific problems that can arise in each environment instead of conducting some sort of weird Socratic dialogue about imaginary apps and a seemingly made-up iOS.
codedokode 8y ago
Mobile OS have much better isolation between apps than Debian has. In default Debian configuration any app can access all of your data, microphone, webcam, Internet, GPS sensors etc. While the maintainers do a good job reviewing all of the software, having isolation on OS level provides better security. For example, Chrome has process sandboxing. It might seem unnecessary because the code is written by highly professional developers, but it helps Chrome to be the most difficult to exploit browser. I am sure that if Debian could adopt something similar to Android permission system, it would make it even more secure.

tptacek 8y ago

You will be in worse shape than I will be. It's possible, in that insane proposition, that your Debian machine will be conceding remote code execution to the whole Internet, while my phone will just have some crappy apps on the home screen.

RVuRnvbM2e 8y ago
Doesn't that answer assume some or all of the following? a) Apple does a better job reviewing apps than Debian maintainers do. b) iPhone app code is better quality than Debian packages. c) iOS sandboxing is better than Linux. Default configuration may mean c) is true. However not if you use wayland, apparmor, seccomp, namespaces etc. What do you think about a) and b)?
- tptacek 8y ago
  The question wasn't whether they could write an elaborate seccomp policy to contain any given Debian package. I just got to pick 10 of them, and install them.
- tedunangst 8y ago
  The beep local root suggests the Debian review system has room to improve. It's a pretty deep barrel. You're sure there's no crud at the bottom?
  - zaarn 8y ago
    beepmargeddon is a local privilege exploit, not a RCE. I'm not aware of any debian package (I don't use debian that often though so mind that) that A) installs a network service and B) uses unsafe defaults while C) activating the service on boot by default
  - belorn 8y ago
    How is the beep local root different from jail breaks in the past? Seems both are local privilege exploit, and I recall seeing that iphone has had a long list of those in the past.
  - jancsika 8y ago
    Hi Ted, Oh wow, is there ever crud at the bottom. Yesterday I apt-get install'd probably 5 such cruds just to record a small rectangle on my desktop. TBH I did this after apt-get install'ing 3 other animated-gif related cruds to do simple motion animation, then just gave up and used the half-baked Web Animations API in devtools of Firefox because it was easier and better documented than anything else I could find. That's 8 total cruds written by who-knows, maintained by whoever, audited probably-never by no-one. Also, they pulled in various dependencies I didn't pay the faintest attention to. How many of those 8 apps would you estimate sent my email contacts to a third party upon instantiation? How many of those 8 apps would you estimate gathered various pieces of data to fingerprint my device? How many keep gathering data from every sensor source they can poll every time I run and use the app? How many of those 8 apps would you estimate even touched the network at all? Now let's suppose I download 8 cruds on iOS just as mindlessly as I did here. Do you think the answers to those questions will be different?
    - pvg 8y ago
      You should try to think of some specific problems that can arise in each environment instead of conducting some sort of weird Socratic dialogue about imaginary apps and a seemingly made-up iOS.

codedokode 8y ago

Mobile OS have much better isolation between apps than Debian has. In default Debian configuration any app can access all of your data, microphone, webcam, Internet, GPS sensors etc. While the maintainers do a good job reviewing all of the software, having isolation on OS level provides better security. For example, Chrome has process sandboxing. It might seem unnecessary because the code is written by highly professional developers, but it helps Chrome to be the most difficult to exploit browser. I am sure that if Debian could adopt something similar to Android permission system, it would make it even more secure.