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It doesn't have to. It would be ideal of course. The point is that there are always stakeholders and product owners - it just makes that explicit. If the PO is

It doesn't have to. It would be ideal of course. The point is that there are always stakeholders and product owners - it just makes that explicit. If the PO is acting as a proxy for the stakeholder (customer in this case) that's ok. Of course the PO might be wrong... but with small iterations that should be found out quickly and adjusted for.

Nomentatus 8y ago
Principle 4 of twelve: "Business people and developers must work together daily throughout the project." https://www.agilealliance.org/agile101/12-principles-behind-the-agile-manifesto/ https://www.agilealliance.org/agile101/12-principles-behind-... It would be odd if "business people" just meant the developers' upper management within their firm; supervising costs and parking spaces; but not those without a stake in using the software that results, say.
- abritinthebay 8y ago
  Business people doesn’t mean customers however. Which was my point. In fact the only time the customer is mentioned is in principle one: “Our highest priority is to satisfy the customer through early and continuous delivery of valuable software.” Business people absolutely should be involved - product owners & stakeholders (or a proxy for them). That’s fundamental but again: business people != customers. You seem to think stakeholders/product owners are devs direct managers too. That’s rarely the case, if ever, on any functioning agile team I’ve seen. They’re orthogonal to each other.
  - Nomentatus 8y ago
    I think I answered this possible objection, but you've ignored that. Also, I made a distinction between stakeholders and devs direct managers, rather than conflating them. I don't believe I can be of further assistance to you.
    - abritinthebay 8y ago
      Your answer fell short and is contradicted by the agile principles. Your distinction was practically meaningless given your later usage. You were never any “assistance”. You had nothing of substance to add.

Nomentatus 8y ago

Principle 4 of twelve: "Business people and developers must work together daily throughout the project." https://www.agilealliance.org/agile101/12-principles-behind-the-agile-manifesto/ https://www.agilealliance.org/agile101/12-principles-behind-... It would be odd if "business people" just meant the developers' upper management within their firm; supervising costs and parking spaces; but not those without a stake in using the software that results, say.

abritinthebay 8y ago
Business people doesn’t mean customers however. Which was my point. In fact the only time the customer is mentioned is in principle one: “Our highest priority is to satisfy the customer through early and continuous delivery of valuable software.” Business people absolutely should be involved - product owners & stakeholders (or a proxy for them). That’s fundamental but again: business people != customers. You seem to think stakeholders/product owners are devs direct managers too. That’s rarely the case, if ever, on any functioning agile team I’ve seen. They’re orthogonal to each other.
- Nomentatus 8y ago
  I think I answered this possible objection, but you've ignored that. Also, I made a distinction between stakeholders and devs direct managers, rather than conflating them. I don't believe I can be of further assistance to you.
  - abritinthebay 8y ago
    Your answer fell short and is contradicted by the agile principles. Your distinction was practically meaningless given your later usage. You were never any “assistance”. You had nothing of substance to add.