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I think the author left out something. Agile involves getting the customer deeply involved from the start, so that after one or two spins of cycle, they have a

I think the author left out something. Agile involves getting the customer deeply involved from the start, so that after one or two spins of cycle, they have a more sober view of what the magicians are doing, and how little they, the customer, get to ask for in the real world, if they want the project to be done this century (and they do.) Done well, it's the equivalent of sticking your dog's nose into the mess they made on your rug; where dog=client.

djstein 8y ago
Interesting perspective on what Agile is supposed to accomplish. From my anecdotal experience, it does not however, nor do I believe it will change.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  The issue is one of buy-in. For it to work, everyone involved, client, management, development, qa, design, everyone has to be on board with the agile way of doing things. Without that, you have development working in the agile manner, believing in good faith that everyone else is too, and then the second a snag gets hit, then that all goes out the window, and development is usually the one left holding the bag and punished with overtime.
  - Nomentatus 8y ago
    Right. Sturgeon's law, I guess. Agile Theatre is more common than Agile, just as security theatre is more common than security. So I'd say both above comments are accurate.
jiveturkey 8y ago
> I think the author left out something. He made it quite clear, it's his conclusion: Now, each iteration offers not only the chance for project management to be exercised, but more specifically, to ensure that it is exercised by capturing the appropriate, timely information from all the appropriate stakeholders. Emphasis mine.
- Nomentatus 8y ago
  Not only is that vague, it's not the same thing. Polling stakeholders isn't embedding or involving.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Spooky23 8y ago
The magic of “agile” is that partnership with the customer and shared accountability. That’s difficult to codify, especially in contracts for delivery. “Agile methods” more often than not translate into hiding a complete lack of planning in a bunch of mumbo jumbo.
abritinthebay 8y ago
It doesn't have to. It would be ideal of course. The point is that there are always stakeholders and product owners - it just makes that explicit. If the PO is acting as a proxy for the stakeholder (customer in this case) that's ok. Of course the PO might be wrong... but with small iterations that should be found out quickly and adjusted for.
- Nomentatus 8y ago
  Principle 4 of twelve: "Business people and developers must work together daily throughout the project." https://www.agilealliance.org/agile101/12-principles-behind-the-agile-manifesto/ https://www.agilealliance.org/agile101/12-principles-behind-... It would be odd if "business people" just meant the developers' upper management within their firm; supervising costs and parking spaces; but not those without a stake in using the software that results, say.
  - abritinthebay 8y ago
    Business people doesn’t mean customers however. Which was my point. In fact the only time the customer is mentioned is in principle one: “Our highest priority is to satisfy the customer through early and continuous delivery of valuable software.” Business people absolutely should be involved - product owners & stakeholders (or a proxy for them). That’s fundamental but again: business people != customers. You seem to think stakeholders/product owners are devs direct managers too. That’s rarely the case, if ever, on any functioning agile team I’ve seen. They’re orthogonal to each other.
    - Nomentatus 8y ago
      I think I answered this possible objection, but you've ignored that. Also, I made a distinction between stakeholders and devs direct managers, rather than conflating them. I don't believe I can be of further assistance to you.
      - abritinthebay 8y ago

djstein 8y ago

Interesting perspective on what Agile is supposed to accomplish. From my anecdotal experience, it does not however, nor do I believe it will change.

s73v3r_ 8y ago
The issue is one of buy-in. For it to work, everyone involved, client, management, development, qa, design, everyone has to be on board with the agile way of doing things. Without that, you have development working in the agile manner, believing in good faith that everyone else is too, and then the second a snag gets hit, then that all goes out the window, and development is usually the one left holding the bag and punished with overtime.
- Nomentatus 8y ago
  Right. Sturgeon's law, I guess. Agile Theatre is more common than Agile, just as security theatre is more common than security. So I'd say both above comments are accurate.

jiveturkey 8y ago

> I think the author left out something. He made it quite clear, it's his conclusion: Now, each iteration offers not only the chance for project management to be exercised, but more specifically, to ensure that it is exercised by capturing the appropriate, timely information from all the appropriate stakeholders. Emphasis mine.

Nomentatus 8y ago
Not only is that vague, it's not the same thing. Polling stakeholders isn't embedding or involving.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Spooky23 8y ago

The magic of “agile” is that partnership with the customer and shared accountability. That’s difficult to codify, especially in contracts for delivery. “Agile methods” more often than not translate into hiding a complete lack of planning in a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

abritinthebay 8y ago

It doesn't have to. It would be ideal of course. The point is that there are always stakeholders and product owners - it just makes that explicit. If the PO is acting as a proxy for the stakeholder (customer in this case) that's ok. Of course the PO might be wrong... but with small iterations that should be found out quickly and adjusted for.

Nomentatus 8y ago
Principle 4 of twelve: "Business people and developers must work together daily throughout the project." https://www.agilealliance.org/agile101/12-principles-behind-the-agile-manifesto/ https://www.agilealliance.org/agile101/12-principles-behind-... It would be odd if "business people" just meant the developers' upper management within their firm; supervising costs and parking spaces; but not those without a stake in using the software that results, say.
- abritinthebay 8y ago
  Business people doesn’t mean customers however. Which was my point. In fact the only time the customer is mentioned is in principle one: “Our highest priority is to satisfy the customer through early and continuous delivery of valuable software.” Business people absolutely should be involved - product owners & stakeholders (or a proxy for them). That’s fundamental but again: business people != customers. You seem to think stakeholders/product owners are devs direct managers too. That’s rarely the case, if ever, on any functioning agile team I’ve seen. They’re orthogonal to each other.
  - Nomentatus 8y ago
    I think I answered this possible objection, but you've ignored that. Also, I made a distinction between stakeholders and devs direct managers, rather than conflating them. I don't believe I can be of further assistance to you.
    - abritinthebay 8y ago