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Europe did the same in importing large numbers of Muslim laborers after WW2. The hope was that they'd either make their money and go back home, or culturally in

Europe did the same in importing large numbers of Muslim laborers after WW2. The hope was that they'd either make their money and go back home, or culturally integrate. Many observers will say that neither happened and there's now a difficult social problem in many countries like France.

dv_dt 8y ago
America integrated large immigrant waves in it's past, and I doubt anyone would say the Italians, or Irish, or other minorities were not integrated today. Time bridges cultures, and we're the better for it.
- cheeseomlit 8y ago
  Italians, Irish, and most of the other immigrants from that time were Europeans who had a lot in common with Americans culturally.
  - spamizbad 8y ago
    Not really true, especially for southern Sicilians Italians They shared neither language nor religion (US was overwhelmingly protestant). At the time, they were considered a distinct race from your typical white American due to their Sicilian heritage. Their diet was also significantly different, to the point where some states actually sent out social workers teaching Italian families to cook "American" foods -- the fear being their pasta-heavy diets would prevent them from integrating. Politically, they were far more pro-labor and were viewed as agitators, socialists and anarchists -- far removed from the political mainstream during the roaring 20s. They were hated and feared enough that there was a mass lynching of 11 Italian-Americans in Louisiana.
  - dv_dt 8y ago
    I don't think you're thinking of the historical details to say that in such a blase manner. The path to integration went through periods much more violent and contentious than anything we see today.
    - cheeseomlit 8y ago
      I'm aware of how immigrants were treated back then and I'm not condoning it. That still doesn't change the fact that they came from cultures that IMO were quite compatible with the USAs considering their common origin and values. I think the current situation in Europe, and other instances of mass migration in history, demonstrate that not all cultures are compatible with each other
      - dv_dt 8y ago
        Like Cubans after the revolution, or Iranians after their revolution, or maybe the mass of Vietnamese after the war? What actual cultures are you saying are incompatible? America has worked with them all and despite hand-wringing over "compatibility". There is a much stronger case to be made human beings are humans in the end and that it just takes time.
      - chaostheory 8y ago
        That’s not true. When German immigrants were new, no one believed they would integrate since they refused to give up speaking German. Catholics like the Irish were viewed with suspicion because they revered a pope. America’s secret superpower is the ability to assimilate pretty much any people within four generations give or take
      - yborg 8y ago
        So, only white people can assimilate then? The now many generations of people of Hispanic origin that are part of the American story would seem to indicate you are wrong. As is the case with the now multiple generations of Koreans and particularly Japanese, who remain part of the US story even after being put into concentration camps because of precisely the same sort of prejudice, that they were somehow inherently un-American due to their "cultural incompatibility", i.e. non-whiteness, unlike the millions of German-Americans in the US at the time. The Muslims will (continue to) integrate as well. It takes a couple of generations.
      - adamsea 8y ago
        > I think the current situation in Europe, and other instances of mass migration in history, demonstrate that not all cultures are compatible with each other. Japanese Americans? Chinese Americans? Indian Americans? Plus, the very concept of some sort of empirical “cultural incompatibility” seems highly questionable. I mean, it’s not like cultures change over time or anything like that.
  - Analemma_ 8y ago
    That's not what anti-immigration crusaders said at the time. It was a common belief that Italian and Irish immigrants (who were mostly Catholic) could never fit in to Protestant American society. Your statement is pure revisionism.
  - jaredklewis 8y ago
    The Chinese immigrated to the US at a similar time as the Irish and Italians. The more than 3 million Chinese living in the US today seem plenty well integrated and I don’t think China and America are particular close in terms of culture.
    - cheeseomlit 8y ago
      That's a fair point, I guess I'd make a distinction between similarity and compatibility
    - gowld 8y ago
      And the Chinese immigrants were met with the same fierce racism that meets Hispanics and Arabs and Africans today.
      - loggedinmyphone 8y ago
        Historically the Hispanic and African populations were in the US a good deal before the Chinese.
      - raverbashing 8y ago
        In France the Chinese are the preferred targets of gangs (run by whom?) http://www.france24.com/en/20160908-france-chinese-community-targeted-crime-aubervilliers-protest http://www.france24.com/en/20160908-france-chinese-community...
    - jandrese 8y ago
      And also Irish. Despite being white and christian the Irish faced considerable discrimination around the turn of the century.
      - kaitai 8y ago
        As recently as 1998 I had a preacher tell my Irish Catholic friend that she still had a chance to accept Jesus and be saved. There is still a feeling that Catholics are not really Christian in some circles, and that was an important factor in justifying the discrimination you mention!
  - jpao79 8y ago
    This movie, Gangs of New York, by Martin Scorsese about New York City during a period of Irish immigration might suggest otherwise. I recall attempting to watch it when it came out on DVD but it was too violent for a Friday night: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_of_New_York#Historical_accuracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_of_New_York#Historical_a...
  - adamsea 8y ago
    Almost every single movie by Martin Scorsese would say otherwise. Seriously, though, Catholics and Protestants? There was a reason it was a big deal that Kennedy was the first Catholic president.
  - baal232 8y ago
    Back then, Americans didn't see it that way. There was a widespread suspicion that Catholicism was incompatible with democracy.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > There was a widespread suspicion that Catholicism was incompatible with democracy. And that was the secularized, polite face of the common religious belief that both the Papacy as an office and the particular occupants of that office were the literal referent of the biblical Antichrist, and that “Papists” were, therefore, followers of the Antichrist.
- loggedinmyphone 8y ago
  I agree. I should clarify my point is just that it's very hard to undo a decision to increase immigration after the fact; I do think there should be some amount of cross-cultural immigration.
- rayiner 8y ago
  That was back when there was a broad social concensus in favor of integration. Both sides of the political spectrum have destroyed that (the right through nativism and the left through cultural relativism).
simmanian 8y ago
>Many observers will say that neither happened And do you agree with the observers? If so, do you have sources to back up the claim? I ask you not to accuse you of anything but because I watched a Kurzgesagt video a while back saying most of the immigrants have integrated well over the next few generations.
- loggedinmyphone 8y ago
  Based on my personal experiences with people of Turkish and Egyptian descent living in Europe, I believe that many are happy being integrated into their adopted nationality, and many are not. Again my point is not that immigration can't work, just that a hasty decision can be nearly impossible to reverse.
- dorchadas 8y ago
  Exactly. Over the next few generations. Everyone was immediate integration, which doesn't happen in most places AFAIK. Even in America, first generation immigrants and refugees stand apart in some places. But their kids fit in well, and are fairly American, though they still possibly speak the heritage language and such. By grandkids though you couldn't tell them apart from normal 'integrated' Americans apart from the accent of their grandparents. It just takes time to integrate, and I'd say those who argue that Europe isn't integrated are looking st more recent immigrants, or older generations, and not the ones who would most likely be integrated already.

dv_dt 8y ago

America integrated large immigrant waves in it's past, and I doubt anyone would say the Italians, or Irish, or other minorities were not integrated today. Time bridges cultures, and we're the better for it.

cheeseomlit 8y ago
Italians, Irish, and most of the other immigrants from that time were Europeans who had a lot in common with Americans culturally.
- spamizbad 8y ago
  Not really true, especially for southern Sicilians Italians They shared neither language nor religion (US was overwhelmingly protestant). At the time, they were considered a distinct race from your typical white American due to their Sicilian heritage. Their diet was also significantly different, to the point where some states actually sent out social workers teaching Italian families to cook "American" foods -- the fear being their pasta-heavy diets would prevent them from integrating. Politically, they were far more pro-labor and were viewed as agitators, socialists and anarchists -- far removed from the political mainstream during the roaring 20s. They were hated and feared enough that there was a mass lynching of 11 Italian-Americans in Louisiana.
- dv_dt 8y ago
  I don't think you're thinking of the historical details to say that in such a blase manner. The path to integration went through periods much more violent and contentious than anything we see today.
  - cheeseomlit 8y ago
    I'm aware of how immigrants were treated back then and I'm not condoning it. That still doesn't change the fact that they came from cultures that IMO were quite compatible with the USAs considering their common origin and values. I think the current situation in Europe, and other instances of mass migration in history, demonstrate that not all cultures are compatible with each other
    - dv_dt 8y ago
      Like Cubans after the revolution, or Iranians after their revolution, or maybe the mass of Vietnamese after the war? What actual cultures are you saying are incompatible? America has worked with them all and despite hand-wringing over "compatibility". There is a much stronger case to be made human beings are humans in the end and that it just takes time.
    - chaostheory 8y ago
      That’s not true. When German immigrants were new, no one believed they would integrate since they refused to give up speaking German. Catholics like the Irish were viewed with suspicion because they revered a pope. America’s secret superpower is the ability to assimilate pretty much any people within four generations give or take
    - yborg 8y ago
      So, only white people can assimilate then? The now many generations of people of Hispanic origin that are part of the American story would seem to indicate you are wrong. As is the case with the now multiple generations of Koreans and particularly Japanese, who remain part of the US story even after being put into concentration camps because of precisely the same sort of prejudice, that they were somehow inherently un-American due to their "cultural incompatibility", i.e. non-whiteness, unlike the millions of German-Americans in the US at the time. The Muslims will (continue to) integrate as well. It takes a couple of generations.
    - adamsea 8y ago
      > I think the current situation in Europe, and other instances of mass migration in history, demonstrate that not all cultures are compatible with each other. Japanese Americans? Chinese Americans? Indian Americans? Plus, the very concept of some sort of empirical “cultural incompatibility” seems highly questionable. I mean, it’s not like cultures change over time or anything like that.
- Analemma_ 8y ago
  That's not what anti-immigration crusaders said at the time. It was a common belief that Italian and Irish immigrants (who were mostly Catholic) could never fit in to Protestant American society. Your statement is pure revisionism.
- jaredklewis 8y ago
  The Chinese immigrated to the US at a similar time as the Irish and Italians. The more than 3 million Chinese living in the US today seem plenty well integrated and I don’t think China and America are particular close in terms of culture.
  - cheeseomlit 8y ago
    That's a fair point, I guess I'd make a distinction between similarity and compatibility
  - gowld 8y ago
    And the Chinese immigrants were met with the same fierce racism that meets Hispanics and Arabs and Africans today.
    - loggedinmyphone 8y ago
      Historically the Hispanic and African populations were in the US a good deal before the Chinese.
    - raverbashing 8y ago
      In France the Chinese are the preferred targets of gangs (run by whom?) http://www.france24.com/en/20160908-france-chinese-community-targeted-crime-aubervilliers-protest http://www.france24.com/en/20160908-france-chinese-community...
  - jandrese 8y ago
    And also Irish. Despite being white and christian the Irish faced considerable discrimination around the turn of the century.
    - kaitai 8y ago
      As recently as 1998 I had a preacher tell my Irish Catholic friend that she still had a chance to accept Jesus and be saved. There is still a feeling that Catholics are not really Christian in some circles, and that was an important factor in justifying the discrimination you mention!
- jpao79 8y ago
  This movie, Gangs of New York, by Martin Scorsese about New York City during a period of Irish immigration might suggest otherwise. I recall attempting to watch it when it came out on DVD but it was too violent for a Friday night: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_of_New_York#Historical_accuracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_of_New_York#Historical_a...
- adamsea 8y ago
  Almost every single movie by Martin Scorsese would say otherwise. Seriously, though, Catholics and Protestants? There was a reason it was a big deal that Kennedy was the first Catholic president.
- baal232 8y ago
  Back then, Americans didn't see it that way. There was a widespread suspicion that Catholicism was incompatible with democracy.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > There was a widespread suspicion that Catholicism was incompatible with democracy. And that was the secularized, polite face of the common religious belief that both the Papacy as an office and the particular occupants of that office were the literal referent of the biblical Antichrist, and that “Papists” were, therefore, followers of the Antichrist.
loggedinmyphone 8y ago
I agree. I should clarify my point is just that it's very hard to undo a decision to increase immigration after the fact; I do think there should be some amount of cross-cultural immigration.
rayiner 8y ago
That was back when there was a broad social concensus in favor of integration. Both sides of the political spectrum have destroyed that (the right through nativism and the left through cultural relativism).

simmanian 8y ago

>Many observers will say that neither happened And do you agree with the observers? If so, do you have sources to back up the claim? I ask you not to accuse you of anything but because I watched a Kurzgesagt video a while back saying most of the immigrants have integrated well over the next few generations.

loggedinmyphone 8y ago
Based on my personal experiences with people of Turkish and Egyptian descent living in Europe, I believe that many are happy being integrated into their adopted nationality, and many are not. Again my point is not that immigration can't work, just that a hasty decision can be nearly impossible to reverse.
dorchadas 8y ago
Exactly. Over the next few generations. Everyone was immediate integration, which doesn't happen in most places AFAIK. Even in America, first generation immigrants and refugees stand apart in some places. But their kids fit in well, and are fairly American, though they still possibly speak the heritage language and such. By grandkids though you couldn't tell them apart from normal 'integrated' Americans apart from the accent of their grandparents. It just takes time to integrate, and I'd say those who argue that Europe isn't integrated are looking st more recent immigrants, or older generations, and not the ones who would most likely be integrated already.