5 ms·

This is something that seems to happen in most countries when they reach a certain stage of development (see Japan, Korea). I think it related to the general a

by xevb3k 8y ago

This is something that seems to happen in most countries when they reach a certain stage of development (see Japan, Korea). I think it related to the general availability of contraception and that the work involved in caring for children has increased, while the number of carers has decreased. The trend toward migration means grandparents are often not nearby to help care for kids. This coupled with the fact that in most cases both parents need to work increases the difficulty in raising kids dramatically. I’ve also noticed that, while grandparents are not around to help, fathers often still don’t involve themselves in childcare. All this coupled with how expensive kids are means that if you can satisfy yourself with one child, people often do. Enough that it depresses the birth rate significantly in any case.

tathougies 8y ago
> fathers often still don’t involve themselves in childcare. Are people really living in marriages where the husband does nothing? This is a genuine question. My family is Indian, and I grew up in America, but from what I remember, my mom and dad spent most of their time taking care of my brother and I, whether that be by cooking, paying bills, cleaning the house, taking care of the car, driving us around, etc. Our grandparents lived in India, and only immigrated permanently in our teenage years, and both my parents worked (my mother even went to college). Indian culture is not known for an equal sharing of responsibilities, but that was my experience in my family. What are these husbands doing, if not taking care of their families? Watching TV? What? How is doing nothing productive for your family considered societally acceptable for men? As a man, I've always felt it was a societal imperative that everything I do directly benefit my wife and children.
- annywhey 8y ago
  The stereotypical American setup is: Man helps by going to job, paying bills, doing "male-coded" household work(handyman, auto maintenance, etc.). Woman does "female-coded" equivalents(cooking, cleaning, shopping). In my own family the actual way it worked out was that both of them indulged their fixations and muddled through the rest without much discipline or mutual encouragement. This was imperfect but mostly worked for me up until my teen years, at that point I was neither something to indulge in or make plans with, unless one of them had concocted a story involving me - and then I was obliged to go along with it. That was not great for my psyche. And I presume in more dysfunctional families they end up getting into an argument about everything, or one is an abuser and gets away with doing less.
  - tathougies 8y ago
    Isn't male coded housework quite difficult? My dad did a lot of projects on our house that were quite necessary to prevent things like mold growth or to make it easier to live there. He made my brother and I help a lot, and based on my memories, it was not easy work. We had this shower that needed sealing quite often, and from my memories, it was back breaking work. Often times, I would hope my mom would ask me to help her peel carrots, fold clothes, or something easier, much to my dad's chagrin.
    - magduf 8y ago
      In my experience when I was married and lived this way (without kids), the "male" tasks were comparatively quite difficult and frequently involved specialized knowledge, but didn't take all that much time compared to all the cooking and cleaning my ex-wife did, though sometimes it required some late hours if a project needed to be done at a certain time. In our case, I worked a full-time tech job while my ex either wasn't working at all, or for a while was in a technical school (which wasn't taking all that much of her time), plus for a while we had several rental houses that we had to do repairs and upgrades on. So I did auto repair, tile installation, plumbing repair, etc., while she did most of the cooking and cleaning, and some things we shared like painting.
    - kaitai 8y ago
      Many people (regardless of gender) no longer know how to do any of these things. I've learned a lot about moisture management, mold growth, roof functioning, etc over some years of homeownership, a lot of it from my husband who learned it from his grandfather. Many of my peers have no idea about any of it. The tasks you mention are amazingly important. However, many people today feel "male-coded" tasks encompass the following alone: take out trash, mow lawn, take car for oil change or car wash, set up TV. That set of tasks is not complex.
- drspacemonkey 8y ago
  Yes. A friend of mine is very much an uninvolved father. His wife handles all the child-rearing and housekeeping, while he plays videogames, often while drinking. I've mentioned to him that he should probably be more involved, but it's not my place or responsibility to tell him he's failing as a husband and father. In his defence, he's still a better father than his own father ever was, but that's not exactly a high bar, and he knows it. Frankly, I don't know why his wife puts up with him.
  - xevb3k 8y ago
    I’m not sure... I get your point and understand how you feel. But having seen it a few times, and the effect it has on the wife and child, I can’t be friends with people who act like this anymore. I just feel like I’m normalizing their actions by acting like it’s no big deal. I think one of the reasons that this kind of attitude amongst fathers continues, is because it’s seen as somewhat normal and socially acceptable.
    - tathougies 8y ago
      I totally agree. A man who sits at home all day (or even after work), drinks, and plays video games, is not someone who is going to make me a better person, in any respect. I'd cut my losses. The last thing anyone needs is to be associated with a loser.
  - tathougies 8y ago
    We know a couple like this, and if I were the wife, I'd leave him. He's a nice guy and all, but he's utterly useless, and I've told him that a few times. I'm just a friend though, and his wife puts up with him. I just don't get it -- she's a smart, educated woman, and he's quite educated as well, but I don't see how a grown adult can act like he does. Their marriage feels abnormal though, and I can see it breaking apart in the future. Perhaps this is a reason why divorce rates are up too, if this behavior is considered normal.
    - xevb3k 8y ago
      Sometimes it’s hard to leave for many reasons. If the kids small, and they can’t work, then it’s possible to get trapped in a marriage for financial reasons...
- xevb3k 8y ago
  I’ve seen it happen a lot. Father works (particularly in a tech context often earns much more than mother). Uses this fact to exercise financial control and states that their “equal contribution” is financial support. Meanwhile, at least in early years, mother spends 16 hours a day looking after kids. Essentially the father gets some downtime, but mother has to look after kids constantly (maybe gets a little help but that’s it). And if you /never/ get any downtime it tends to drive you into depression... causes other issues.
  - tathougies 8y ago
    > Father works (particularly in a tech context often earns much more than mother). Uses this fact to exercise financial control and states that their “equal contribution” is financial support. Now that you mention it, I've seen this in some friends and colleagues, working in the tech sector. I always chocked it up to tech workers often being socially atypcial. Didn't realize it was considered normal. Just doesn't match my experience with my parents, or the adults I grew up with (who granted, were mostly vietnamese and phillipino due to where we lived), and I don't see it in my wife's family (irish). My dad always earned more than my mom, but when he came home, he would always be the one to do things with my brother and I and leave my mom to rest. Moreover, my mom was always so thankful that she no longer had to work.

by xevb3k 8y ago

tathougies 8y ago

> fathers often still don’t involve themselves in childcare. Are people really living in marriages where the husband does nothing? This is a genuine question. My family is Indian, and I grew up in America, but from what I remember, my mom and dad spent most of their time taking care of my brother and I, whether that be by cooking, paying bills, cleaning the house, taking care of the car, driving us around, etc. Our grandparents lived in India, and only immigrated permanently in our teenage years, and both my parents worked (my mother even went to college). Indian culture is not known for an equal sharing of responsibilities, but that was my experience in my family. What are these husbands doing, if not taking care of their families? Watching TV? What? How is doing nothing productive for your family considered societally acceptable for men? As a man, I've always felt it was a societal imperative that everything I do directly benefit my wife and children.

annywhey 8y ago
The stereotypical American setup is: Man helps by going to job, paying bills, doing "male-coded" household work(handyman, auto maintenance, etc.). Woman does "female-coded" equivalents(cooking, cleaning, shopping). In my own family the actual way it worked out was that both of them indulged their fixations and muddled through the rest without much discipline or mutual encouragement. This was imperfect but mostly worked for me up until my teen years, at that point I was neither something to indulge in or make plans with, unless one of them had concocted a story involving me - and then I was obliged to go along with it. That was not great for my psyche. And I presume in more dysfunctional families they end up getting into an argument about everything, or one is an abuser and gets away with doing less.
- tathougies 8y ago
  Isn't male coded housework quite difficult? My dad did a lot of projects on our house that were quite necessary to prevent things like mold growth or to make it easier to live there. He made my brother and I help a lot, and based on my memories, it was not easy work. We had this shower that needed sealing quite often, and from my memories, it was back breaking work. Often times, I would hope my mom would ask me to help her peel carrots, fold clothes, or something easier, much to my dad's chagrin.
  - magduf 8y ago
    In my experience when I was married and lived this way (without kids), the "male" tasks were comparatively quite difficult and frequently involved specialized knowledge, but didn't take all that much time compared to all the cooking and cleaning my ex-wife did, though sometimes it required some late hours if a project needed to be done at a certain time. In our case, I worked a full-time tech job while my ex either wasn't working at all, or for a while was in a technical school (which wasn't taking all that much of her time), plus for a while we had several rental houses that we had to do repairs and upgrades on. So I did auto repair, tile installation, plumbing repair, etc., while she did most of the cooking and cleaning, and some things we shared like painting.
  - kaitai 8y ago
    Many people (regardless of gender) no longer know how to do any of these things. I've learned a lot about moisture management, mold growth, roof functioning, etc over some years of homeownership, a lot of it from my husband who learned it from his grandfather. Many of my peers have no idea about any of it. The tasks you mention are amazingly important. However, many people today feel "male-coded" tasks encompass the following alone: take out trash, mow lawn, take car for oil change or car wash, set up TV. That set of tasks is not complex.
drspacemonkey 8y ago
Yes. A friend of mine is very much an uninvolved father. His wife handles all the child-rearing and housekeeping, while he plays videogames, often while drinking. I've mentioned to him that he should probably be more involved, but it's not my place or responsibility to tell him he's failing as a husband and father. In his defence, he's still a better father than his own father ever was, but that's not exactly a high bar, and he knows it. Frankly, I don't know why his wife puts up with him.
- xevb3k 8y ago
  I’m not sure... I get your point and understand how you feel. But having seen it a few times, and the effect it has on the wife and child, I can’t be friends with people who act like this anymore. I just feel like I’m normalizing their actions by acting like it’s no big deal. I think one of the reasons that this kind of attitude amongst fathers continues, is because it’s seen as somewhat normal and socially acceptable.
  - tathougies 8y ago
    I totally agree. A man who sits at home all day (or even after work), drinks, and plays video games, is not someone who is going to make me a better person, in any respect. I'd cut my losses. The last thing anyone needs is to be associated with a loser.
- tathougies 8y ago
  We know a couple like this, and if I were the wife, I'd leave him. He's a nice guy and all, but he's utterly useless, and I've told him that a few times. I'm just a friend though, and his wife puts up with him. I just don't get it -- she's a smart, educated woman, and he's quite educated as well, but I don't see how a grown adult can act like he does. Their marriage feels abnormal though, and I can see it breaking apart in the future. Perhaps this is a reason why divorce rates are up too, if this behavior is considered normal.
  - xevb3k 8y ago
    Sometimes it’s hard to leave for many reasons. If the kids small, and they can’t work, then it’s possible to get trapped in a marriage for financial reasons...
xevb3k 8y ago
I’ve seen it happen a lot. Father works (particularly in a tech context often earns much more than mother). Uses this fact to exercise financial control and states that their “equal contribution” is financial support. Meanwhile, at least in early years, mother spends 16 hours a day looking after kids. Essentially the father gets some downtime, but mother has to look after kids constantly (maybe gets a little help but that’s it). And if you /never/ get any downtime it tends to drive you into depression... causes other issues.
- tathougies 8y ago
  > Father works (particularly in a tech context often earns much more than mother). Uses this fact to exercise financial control and states that their “equal contribution” is financial support. Now that you mention it, I've seen this in some friends and colleagues, working in the tech sector. I always chocked it up to tech workers often being socially atypcial. Didn't realize it was considered normal. Just doesn't match my experience with my parents, or the adults I grew up with (who granted, were mostly vietnamese and phillipino due to where we lived), and I don't see it in my wife's family (irish). My dad always earned more than my mom, but when he came home, he would always be the one to do things with my brother and I and leave my mom to rest. Moreover, my mom was always so thankful that she no longer had to work.