10 ms·

I don't have a degree and it almost never fails to come up. Ultimately I flunked out (for a variety of reasons). I've done a lot of A/B(/C/D/E) testing with my

I don't have a degree and it almost never fails to come up. Ultimately I flunked out (for a variety of reasons). I've done a lot of A/B(/C/D/E) testing with my resume: - Don't include education - I'm asked about it. Every. Single. Time. - Include the years I attended college - Asked why I didn't finish. Every. Single. Time. - Include college in a misleading way - I did a summer extension program for 2 years while in high school at a similar college. I list both colleges, my start year, my end year, and what my degree track was. I do not claim that I have a degree, but nearly everyone assumes I do. I'm almost never asked about it. Any time I am asked about it I'm honest to the degree they need ("I had to take a break from school due to family issues", which is true: my family had an issue with the number of "F"s I was getting). I've actually had managers who found out after being hired who told me "if I had known that, I wouldn't have hired you" Ultimately I think there are a lot of industries that a degree requirement is a good thing (I really want my doctor to actually have an MD), a lot of industries where certification is sufficient (I don't particularly think an LMFT needs to have a full degree), but the vast majority of industries shouldn't require it, and filtering for that is a cop-out. I've been at Google for a number of years. Whether I had a degree was brought up during the recruiter conversations; nobody cared.

derefr 8y ago
> I really want my doctor to actually have an MD How do you feel about the fact that doctors from foreign countries need to requalify in the US with a whole ‘nother MD program here? Even if they’re from a country with as-or-more stringent requirements, and decades of experience? “Higher education” is sometimes, in hiring, a dog-whistle for “enculturated to the US because they attended college here.”
- xkjkls 8y ago
  > How do you feel about the fact that doctors from foreign countries need to requalify in the US with a whole ‘nother MD program here? Even if they’re from a country with as-or-more stringent requirements, and decades of experience? There are plenty of countries that do have MD programs that the United States recognizes, like Canada for instance. It's a political issue more than anything. If the medical licensing boards in multiple different countries could come together for some form of agreed licensing this could easily by possible.
  - smnrchrds 8y ago
    > There are plenty of countries that do have MD programs that the United States recognizes, like Canada for instance. Are there any other countries besides Canada in that list? As far as I know, Canada- and US-educated doctors can practice anywhere in Canada or the US. Everyone else has to be "re-certified," which includes doing a residency in Canada or US. It is very competitive to get a residency placement. The results is that if you have not done a residency in the US or Canada, the rule of thumb is that it takes 10 years to get licensed to practice and you have a 10% chance of success. In other words, the problem is not that licensing boards don't accept degrees from other countries, but that they don't accept residencies. And getting a residency spot is so competitive and such a long shot that few people can successfully do it.
- eanzenberg 8y ago
  I fully agree with the US decision. I want my MDs to pass some baseline aptitude set by US regulation and if a governing board decides a country cannot meet that then those doctors need to re-apply.
  - TAForObvReasons 8y ago
    This applies to technology as well: I want the people writing code that will be deployed in $CRITICAL_SITUATION to pass some baseline aptitude test set by US regulation, ideally with some ethics component. Unfortunately, no such thing exists in software and there's a surprising pushback.
    - ghaff 8y ago
      It sort of exists. P.E. Software engineering like most of the other engineering branches use. Signing off on designs that require regulatory approval often requires a PE. In my first job in mechanical design etc. it was understood that I would get this as soon as I could. However my understanding is that almost no one gets this in software and it’s being discontinued.
      - sanderjd 8y ago
        In what country? I have heard that this is required in Canada, but I've never heard of it in the US.
        ghaff 8y ago
        US. It's so uncommon though (in software engineering specifically) that they're apparently dropping it.
  - derefr 8y ago
    They don’t just need to re-do the testing; they need to waste six years and another $300k of tuition to learn things they already know, before anyone will be willing to test them.
- shaftway 8y ago
  > How do you feel about the fact that doctors from foreign countries need to requalify in the US [...] I have zero problem with this. If I was a doctor on the US and moved outside of it I'd expect to requalify there. Different areas have different levels required and just because you've met the levels required in one area doesn't mean you've met them in another. > They don’t just need to re-do the testing; they need to waste six years and another $300k of tuition to learn things they already know, before anyone will be willing to test them. That's your actual concern. I don't think you want to get rid of requalification, just make the process quicker and less expensive. Advocate for this, then.
alkarin 8y ago
Interesting. I also do not have a degree, and I'm pursing my associates part time while working full-time as a Junior Dev. However every job interview I've had people bring up my education, and it seems to always be the deal breaker for them. Despite the fact that I know in my personal work, I'm more capable than most of the people with their Bachelors in CS. I feel like a lot of companies hiring software devs just filter out most of the resumes that don't mention having a Bachelors degree, simply because they can.
- pmiller2 8y ago
  Your résumé is a marketing document. You don't have to put anything about your education on there if you have other stuff worth mentioning, like work experience and personal projects. This may increase your hit rate.
  - dvtv75 8y ago
    I had an argument with one guy who would fire you for "lying in an interview" if you didn't tell him you had a degree, or list it on your resume. His position was that people with degrees would work for him until a better job came along and then just move along, wasting his time "training" them. (Basic laboring work.) He didn't understand that he was just hiring the lowest common denominator because he wouldn't run a workplace that people wanted to stay in. I've long wondered how many exceptional people he's cast off because they didn't fit his employment profile of "no hope, minimum wage."
    - TheCoelacanth 8y ago
      That sounds like a good person to avoid working with at all costs.
- cookiecaper 8y ago
  Just start talking about what you've done, don't let the education become a sticking point. Especially when you're starting out, people ask about education because they don't know what else to ask about. Make sure your resume lists actual points of interest, and IMO, leave "education" off if you don't have something impressive to put in there. A lot of interviewers essentially just read your resume back to you and ask you to expand.
vubuntu 8y ago
>Ultimately I think there are a lot of industries that a degree requirement is a good thing (I really want my doctor to actually have an MD), a lot of industries where certification is sufficient . Why only Doctors? Because human lives are involved? I assume by the same logic, Civil Engineers also need to have a degree (they build bridges and other life critical infrastructure) There may be thousands of software products that are also life critical. Not just the obvious ones like some medical hardware control program/firmware, Air traffic control programs, Flight onboard software Self-driving car auto-pilot software etc. So I assume those would require a qualified software engineer with a degree. But there may even be others that may not be so obvious immediately. I have a degree and not been on the other side (not having a degree) and so cannot identify with any injustice that is perceived by folks on other side. I can certainly see somewhat equivalent when it comes to bachelors degree vs Masters/PHD as I don't have those. So I am not sure where the lines should be drawn to make it fair to everyone.
- david38 8y ago
  Ha! Brings back memories. When I was an engineering student at UIUC, I was taking a physics class where the Prof graded crazy hard, even by the standards of the department. His response was "one day you might build a bridge and can kill someone."
- miemo 8y ago
  i'm sure he wasn't intending to give you an exhaustive list
- shaftway 8y ago
  I guess I spoke too broadly in this case. The primary I see isn't an MD, they are a PA-C. But I know that they're consulting with an MD behind the scenes as necessary. I'm not exactly sure where I draw the line, and for me it's a lot of "I know it when I see it". I'm not suggesting any specific code here, just pointing out that there are positions all over the spectrum. I find the fact that a CID (Certified Interior Decorator) is a thing is absurd. Maybe my requirement is that someone with an appropriate level is in the chain somewhere.
- deleted 8y ago
ocfx 8y ago
I put that I went to school, never put a graduation date or anything. People just assume I graduated I guess, nobody has ever checked.

derefr 8y ago

> I really want my doctor to actually have an MD How do you feel about the fact that doctors from foreign countries need to requalify in the US with a whole ‘nother MD program here? Even if they’re from a country with as-or-more stringent requirements, and decades of experience? “Higher education” is sometimes, in hiring, a dog-whistle for “enculturated to the US because they attended college here.”

xkjkls 8y ago
> How do you feel about the fact that doctors from foreign countries need to requalify in the US with a whole ‘nother MD program here? Even if they’re from a country with as-or-more stringent requirements, and decades of experience? There are plenty of countries that do have MD programs that the United States recognizes, like Canada for instance. It's a political issue more than anything. If the medical licensing boards in multiple different countries could come together for some form of agreed licensing this could easily by possible.
- smnrchrds 8y ago
  > There are plenty of countries that do have MD programs that the United States recognizes, like Canada for instance. Are there any other countries besides Canada in that list? As far as I know, Canada- and US-educated doctors can practice anywhere in Canada or the US. Everyone else has to be "re-certified," which includes doing a residency in Canada or US. It is very competitive to get a residency placement. The results is that if you have not done a residency in the US or Canada, the rule of thumb is that it takes 10 years to get licensed to practice and you have a 10% chance of success. In other words, the problem is not that licensing boards don't accept degrees from other countries, but that they don't accept residencies. And getting a residency spot is so competitive and such a long shot that few people can successfully do it.
eanzenberg 8y ago
I fully agree with the US decision. I want my MDs to pass some baseline aptitude set by US regulation and if a governing board decides a country cannot meet that then those doctors need to re-apply.
- TAForObvReasons 8y ago
  This applies to technology as well: I want the people writing code that will be deployed in $CRITICAL_SITUATION to pass some baseline aptitude test set by US regulation, ideally with some ethics component. Unfortunately, no such thing exists in software and there's a surprising pushback.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    It sort of exists. P.E. Software engineering like most of the other engineering branches use. Signing off on designs that require regulatory approval often requires a PE. In my first job in mechanical design etc. it was understood that I would get this as soon as I could. However my understanding is that almost no one gets this in software and it’s being discontinued.
    - sanderjd 8y ago
      In what country? I have heard that this is required in Canada, but I've never heard of it in the US.
      - ghaff 8y ago
        US. It's so uncommon though (in software engineering specifically) that they're apparently dropping it.
- derefr 8y ago
  They don’t just need to re-do the testing; they need to waste six years and another $300k of tuition to learn things they already know, before anyone will be willing to test them.
shaftway 8y ago
> How do you feel about the fact that doctors from foreign countries need to requalify in the US [...] I have zero problem with this. If I was a doctor on the US and moved outside of it I'd expect to requalify there. Different areas have different levels required and just because you've met the levels required in one area doesn't mean you've met them in another. > They don’t just need to re-do the testing; they need to waste six years and another $300k of tuition to learn things they already know, before anyone will be willing to test them. That's your actual concern. I don't think you want to get rid of requalification, just make the process quicker and less expensive. Advocate for this, then.

alkarin 8y ago

Interesting. I also do not have a degree, and I'm pursing my associates part time while working full-time as a Junior Dev. However every job interview I've had people bring up my education, and it seems to always be the deal breaker for them. Despite the fact that I know in my personal work, I'm more capable than most of the people with their Bachelors in CS. I feel like a lot of companies hiring software devs just filter out most of the resumes that don't mention having a Bachelors degree, simply because they can.

pmiller2 8y ago
Your résumé is a marketing document. You don't have to put anything about your education on there if you have other stuff worth mentioning, like work experience and personal projects. This may increase your hit rate.
- dvtv75 8y ago
  I had an argument with one guy who would fire you for "lying in an interview" if you didn't tell him you had a degree, or list it on your resume. His position was that people with degrees would work for him until a better job came along and then just move along, wasting his time "training" them. (Basic laboring work.) He didn't understand that he was just hiring the lowest common denominator because he wouldn't run a workplace that people wanted to stay in. I've long wondered how many exceptional people he's cast off because they didn't fit his employment profile of "no hope, minimum wage."
  - TheCoelacanth 8y ago
    That sounds like a good person to avoid working with at all costs.
cookiecaper 8y ago
Just start talking about what you've done, don't let the education become a sticking point. Especially when you're starting out, people ask about education because they don't know what else to ask about. Make sure your resume lists actual points of interest, and IMO, leave "education" off if you don't have something impressive to put in there. A lot of interviewers essentially just read your resume back to you and ask you to expand.

vubuntu 8y ago

>Ultimately I think there are a lot of industries that a degree requirement is a good thing (I really want my doctor to actually have an MD), a lot of industries where certification is sufficient . Why only Doctors? Because human lives are involved? I assume by the same logic, Civil Engineers also need to have a degree (they build bridges and other life critical infrastructure) There may be thousands of software products that are also life critical. Not just the obvious ones like some medical hardware control program/firmware, Air traffic control programs, Flight onboard software Self-driving car auto-pilot software etc. So I assume those would require a qualified software engineer with a degree. But there may even be others that may not be so obvious immediately. I have a degree and not been on the other side (not having a degree) and so cannot identify with any injustice that is perceived by folks on other side. I can certainly see somewhat equivalent when it comes to bachelors degree vs Masters/PHD as I don't have those. So I am not sure where the lines should be drawn to make it fair to everyone.

david38 8y ago
Ha! Brings back memories. When I was an engineering student at UIUC, I was taking a physics class where the Prof graded crazy hard, even by the standards of the department. His response was "one day you might build a bridge and can kill someone."
miemo 8y ago
i'm sure he wasn't intending to give you an exhaustive list
shaftway 8y ago
I guess I spoke too broadly in this case. The primary I see isn't an MD, they are a PA-C. But I know that they're consulting with an MD behind the scenes as necessary. I'm not exactly sure where I draw the line, and for me it's a lot of "I know it when I see it". I'm not suggesting any specific code here, just pointing out that there are positions all over the spectrum. I find the fact that a CID (Certified Interior Decorator) is a thing is absurd. Maybe my requirement is that someone with an appropriate level is in the chain somewhere.
deleted 8y ago

ocfx 8y ago

I put that I went to school, never put a graduation date or anything. People just assume I graduated I guess, nobody has ever checked.