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People hate when I talk about working fulltime in the factory on the midnight shift and going to school fulltime. I didnt get 'the college experience'. But I d

People hate when I talk about working fulltime in the factory on the midnight shift and going to school fulltime. I didnt get 'the college experience'. But I didnt have any college debt, I became a hardened adult that didnt cry when plant people got pissed. I dont complain. If something needs to get done, I do it. Graduated in 3 years with my chem engineering degree at age 21. People will always complain about something. "You should pay for a dorm, food, education from top individuals, books, knowledge, all for spending 200 hours in the summer at a clothing store". I did a factory full time midnight shift job, all year, lived off campus + commuted. Ate at home too. This comes at the cost of the 'College Experience"

nicholas73 8y ago
And where is that factory now?
- mkirklions 8y ago
  Still in Romulus Michigan
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
madengr 8y ago
That’s pretty impressive with a BSChE. I worked about 6 hrs/day, but in daytime, and there was downtime in the job for homework.
dilap 8y ago
Not saying it's true for you, but everyone I knew at college that was working full-time was in my opinion getting far less out of college than they would have. You need time to ponder, to explore, to be curious. Having to grind insane hours just to get in the game might be workable for the very dedicated and tough, but it's certainly not an optimal experience, and something we should strive to make not necessary.
- TallGuyShort 8y ago
  On the other hand, the 4 years I spent working full-time were hands-down the best education I got and directly led to my best job prospects upon graduation, whereas I had peers who finished a 4 year degree and then realized they had no desire to work in their field. Eliminating any cost of college also eliminates any need to ask if what you're studying is actually worthwhile.
  - dilap 8y ago
    I think getting work experience is great, but ideally it'd be in the form of part time work or (even better) summer internships.
- GiorgioG 8y ago
  > You need time to ponder, to explore, to be curious. Most of the kids going to college are not mature enough to do any of the above (come on, these are 17 year olds going 30k into debt for their first year alone.) The 'college experience' today is partying / drinking yourself into a stupor and amassing a ton of debt. No, not everyone, but for most that's reality.
  - blueseaadmin 8y ago
    I agree. My own daughter will be going into the Air Force in a couple of years. She's not one that would do well in the college environment. She fits in best where she is a part of something bigger than herself where there is guidance and discipline (like most kids). If she goes in at 18 after high school, she can earn a degree in 2.5 years at night in the Air Force. After her first 4 years she can choose to get out, with a degree, zero debt, life and work experience. If she so chooses, she can opt to go to Officer Candidate School (13 weeks in Alabama) and emerge 3 months later effectively doubling her income, all the while not paying for medical, dental, housing. If she marries another officer and they do 20 years to retirement, she will be 39, young enough to start a second career and enjoy her AF retirement, second career retirement, and maybe, if she's blessed, SS. More kids should go military. I did, and I had my college paid for and I pay nothing down for houses, get my closing costs paid, no PMI, get treated a little better because of my veteran status. It's a great gig for kids.
tjr225 8y ago
Cool Anecdote - but I don't see your point. It's still more expensive than it used to be, and you can't expect every 18 year old to make the same perfect decisions you did. I worked my ass off too and still came out with debt - and I could do my cushy white collar job now without any of the education I payed so much for though I doubt I would've been given the opportunities I have been given if I didn't have the degree on my resume. Also, cheers from another Michigander - I went to Western.
NicoJuicy 8y ago
Well, college experience includes networking... Not everything can be reached through HN, it's an echo chamber of similar minded people
mtberatwork 8y ago
The point is that there was a time when you could have worked that factory job during the summer to pay for the next year's tuition. I'm sure you would concede that this is much more reasonable than working a full time job on top of a full time university load.
- Frondo 8y ago
  An ex had a grandfather who put himself through school, including dental school and the extra 3 years for a specialty in orthodontics, working a summer job. And he complains about his grandkids needing to go into debt. They don't realize how the world's changed in the last 50 years...
  - freeopinion 8y ago
    I have three children who have completed 2-1/2 bachelors degrees in the last 6 years. Within the next three years I expect that to be 3 bachelors and one masters. All of this will have been achieved with zero debt and no financial assistance from parents. Each child is expected to put in 1200+ hours of employment per year of school. This grosses them $12K+ of salary even as freshmen. They choose schools that cost < $6000/year to attend. They pick up some scholarship money to help when they can. They live in cheap apartments with lots of roommates, and they cook their own food. University of Chicago tuition costs >$50K/year. [0] UofI-Chicago runs ~$17K. [1] Prairie State College in Chicago costs < $5K/year[2] Here's your first college test: Which one offers a better value? If you can't afford food, rent, and tuition for $15K/year, you're not looking hard enough. If you think you should spend $75K/year right out of high school... college may not be a good idea for you. This is not so different from my experience decades ago. I used to opt out of traveling home for Thanksgiving because I could work double shifts during the holiday. Every hour over 1200 helped to pad things. I recently recommended to a high school student that they enter an essay contest worth $1000. I thought they could win. They thought it was too much effort. They might burn up 4 hours! A loan application only takes 30 minutes. [0] https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/cost-aid https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/cost-aid [1] https://admissions.uic.edu/undergraduate/tuition-financial-aid https://admissions.uic.edu/undergraduate/tuition-financial-a... [2] http://prairiestate.edu/apply-reg-pay/tuition-and-fees/index.aspx http://prairiestate.edu/apply-reg-pay/tuition-and-fees/index...
Frondo 8y ago
Why would that experience be aspirational? Why should that be the way we want to structure society? Especially when other western nations show us that university can be free and people can have a rich college experience without that kind of death march.
- replicatorblog 8y ago
  Other Western nations also don't allow everyone to go to college and aggressively track students into vocational programs at an early age. Not saying that's bad, per se, but implementing that approach in the US would create new and different uncomfortable trade-offs.
zaccus 8y ago
With that schedule, were you able to do much in the way of networking? That's part of the 'college experience', and is often cited as one of the greatest benefits of going to college.
- mkirklions 8y ago
  I met my wife. I also dont think college was great to meet people. I had some friends, but none that turned out to be ambitious like me.
- refurb 8y ago
  Working can be a great way to network as well, particularly if you can land a job in the industry you're interested in.
geebee 8y ago
That's excellent, I might even call it extraordinary. Meaning, that is outside the ordinary. I knew a guy in college, at UCSD, who was trying to take a full CS load while working at Nordstrom. This was in the 90s, so rent, tuition, and costs weren't as high around UCSD as they are now, but making enough to cover rent alone can be a challenge. He was trying to take calc, physics, datas structures and algorithms, and humanities. Data structures had a pretty tough teacher that semester. I didn't have to work, and I was putting in 20 hours a week at it, to get a B+. That's not a lot for this course, either. He dropped it. You did ChemE while working, so I bet you could have handled the CS course load at UCSD while working. But I just can't see this as a viable path for most people. In short, I agree that there are extraordinary people who can handle it, but it's not something we can reasonably expect. You can major in communications this way, but CS will lose a lot of talent. Memories like this, and others, are why I get so angry at times when I hear billionaire CEOs talking about the shortage of engineers in the US. We have talented people here, smart and eager to work hard, failing because they are underfunded. The massive wealth of these CEOs exists only because they can access a highly educated workforce in a safe, stable, peaceful, business friendly democracy. If they're going to talk about how this environment is failing them, they aren't doing enough. Seriously. It's appalling that talented people who had the grades and test scores to study CS at public (elite) institutions in Facebook's own backyard are failing out of CS because they can't pay the rent and balance the part time job with the demands of a very rigorous curriculum, while billionaire CEOs talk about how the government is failing to produce or give them access to enough engineers.

nicholas73 8y ago

And where is that factory now?

mkirklions 8y ago
Still in Romulus Michigan
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

madengr 8y ago

That’s pretty impressive with a BSChE. I worked about 6 hrs/day, but in daytime, and there was downtime in the job for homework.

dilap 8y ago

Not saying it's true for you, but everyone I knew at college that was working full-time was in my opinion getting far less out of college than they would have. You need time to ponder, to explore, to be curious. Having to grind insane hours just to get in the game might be workable for the very dedicated and tough, but it's certainly not an optimal experience, and something we should strive to make not necessary.

TallGuyShort 8y ago
On the other hand, the 4 years I spent working full-time were hands-down the best education I got and directly led to my best job prospects upon graduation, whereas I had peers who finished a 4 year degree and then realized they had no desire to work in their field. Eliminating any cost of college also eliminates any need to ask if what you're studying is actually worthwhile.
- dilap 8y ago
  I think getting work experience is great, but ideally it'd be in the form of part time work or (even better) summer internships.
GiorgioG 8y ago
> You need time to ponder, to explore, to be curious. Most of the kids going to college are not mature enough to do any of the above (come on, these are 17 year olds going 30k into debt for their first year alone.) The 'college experience' today is partying / drinking yourself into a stupor and amassing a ton of debt. No, not everyone, but for most that's reality.
- blueseaadmin 8y ago
  I agree. My own daughter will be going into the Air Force in a couple of years. She's not one that would do well in the college environment. She fits in best where she is a part of something bigger than herself where there is guidance and discipline (like most kids). If she goes in at 18 after high school, she can earn a degree in 2.5 years at night in the Air Force. After her first 4 years she can choose to get out, with a degree, zero debt, life and work experience. If she so chooses, she can opt to go to Officer Candidate School (13 weeks in Alabama) and emerge 3 months later effectively doubling her income, all the while not paying for medical, dental, housing. If she marries another officer and they do 20 years to retirement, she will be 39, young enough to start a second career and enjoy her AF retirement, second career retirement, and maybe, if she's blessed, SS. More kids should go military. I did, and I had my college paid for and I pay nothing down for houses, get my closing costs paid, no PMI, get treated a little better because of my veteran status. It's a great gig for kids.

tjr225 8y ago

Cool Anecdote - but I don't see your point. It's still more expensive than it used to be, and you can't expect every 18 year old to make the same perfect decisions you did. I worked my ass off too and still came out with debt - and I could do my cushy white collar job now without any of the education I payed so much for though I doubt I would've been given the opportunities I have been given if I didn't have the degree on my resume. Also, cheers from another Michigander - I went to Western.

NicoJuicy 8y ago

Well, college experience includes networking... Not everything can be reached through HN, it's an echo chamber of similar minded people

mtberatwork 8y ago

The point is that there was a time when you could have worked that factory job during the summer to pay for the next year's tuition. I'm sure you would concede that this is much more reasonable than working a full time job on top of a full time university load.

Frondo 8y ago
An ex had a grandfather who put himself through school, including dental school and the extra 3 years for a specialty in orthodontics, working a summer job. And he complains about his grandkids needing to go into debt. They don't realize how the world's changed in the last 50 years...
- freeopinion 8y ago
  I have three children who have completed 2-1/2 bachelors degrees in the last 6 years. Within the next three years I expect that to be 3 bachelors and one masters. All of this will have been achieved with zero debt and no financial assistance from parents. Each child is expected to put in 1200+ hours of employment per year of school. This grosses them $12K+ of salary even as freshmen. They choose schools that cost < $6000/year to attend. They pick up some scholarship money to help when they can. They live in cheap apartments with lots of roommates, and they cook their own food. University of Chicago tuition costs >$50K/year. [0] UofI-Chicago runs ~$17K. [1] Prairie State College in Chicago costs < $5K/year[2] Here's your first college test: Which one offers a better value? If you can't afford food, rent, and tuition for $15K/year, you're not looking hard enough. If you think you should spend $75K/year right out of high school... college may not be a good idea for you. This is not so different from my experience decades ago. I used to opt out of traveling home for Thanksgiving because I could work double shifts during the holiday. Every hour over 1200 helped to pad things. I recently recommended to a high school student that they enter an essay contest worth $1000. I thought they could win. They thought it was too much effort. They might burn up 4 hours! A loan application only takes 30 minutes. [0] https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/cost-aid https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/cost-aid [1] https://admissions.uic.edu/undergraduate/tuition-financial-aid https://admissions.uic.edu/undergraduate/tuition-financial-a... [2] http://prairiestate.edu/apply-reg-pay/tuition-and-fees/index.aspx http://prairiestate.edu/apply-reg-pay/tuition-and-fees/index...

Frondo 8y ago

Why would that experience be aspirational? Why should that be the way we want to structure society? Especially when other western nations show us that university can be free and people can have a rich college experience without that kind of death march.

replicatorblog 8y ago
Other Western nations also don't allow everyone to go to college and aggressively track students into vocational programs at an early age. Not saying that's bad, per se, but implementing that approach in the US would create new and different uncomfortable trade-offs.

zaccus 8y ago

With that schedule, were you able to do much in the way of networking? That's part of the 'college experience', and is often cited as one of the greatest benefits of going to college.

mkirklions 8y ago
I met my wife. I also dont think college was great to meet people. I had some friends, but none that turned out to be ambitious like me.
refurb 8y ago
Working can be a great way to network as well, particularly if you can land a job in the industry you're interested in.

geebee 8y ago

That's excellent, I might even call it extraordinary. Meaning, that is outside the ordinary. I knew a guy in college, at UCSD, who was trying to take a full CS load while working at Nordstrom. This was in the 90s, so rent, tuition, and costs weren't as high around UCSD as they are now, but making enough to cover rent alone can be a challenge. He was trying to take calc, physics, datas structures and algorithms, and humanities. Data structures had a pretty tough teacher that semester. I didn't have to work, and I was putting in 20 hours a week at it, to get a B+. That's not a lot for this course, either. He dropped it. You did ChemE while working, so I bet you could have handled the CS course load at UCSD while working. But I just can't see this as a viable path for most people. In short, I agree that there are extraordinary people who can handle it, but it's not something we can reasonably expect. You can major in communications this way, but CS will lose a lot of talent. Memories like this, and others, are why I get so angry at times when I hear billionaire CEOs talking about the shortage of engineers in the US. We have talented people here, smart and eager to work hard, failing because they are underfunded. The massive wealth of these CEOs exists only because they can access a highly educated workforce in a safe, stable, peaceful, business friendly democracy. If they're going to talk about how this environment is failing them, they aren't doing enough. Seriously. It's appalling that talented people who had the grades and test scores to study CS at public (elite) institutions in Facebook's own backyard are failing out of CS because they can't pay the rent and balance the part time job with the demands of a very rigorous curriculum, while billionaire CEOs talk about how the government is failing to produce or give them access to enough engineers.