4 ms·

Care to carify? What would be the European equivalent of the Social Credit program?

by cygx 8y ago

lmm 8y ago
Getting denied a bank account/job/housing rental/... for no clear reason and with no way to appeal is becoming increasingly common, and seems to have all the same negatives as the social credit program - if anything worse, since at least you can see your "social credit" score and have some idea of how to improve it.
- Lionsion 8y ago
  > Getting denied a bank account/job/housing rental/... for no clear reason and with no way to appeal is becoming increasingly common, and seems to have all the same negatives as the social credit program - if anything worse, since at least you can see your "social credit" score and have some idea of how to improve it. You seem to be confused about the salient differences between the social credit system and Western credit scores. Focusing on the fact that you can be "denied...for no clear reason or way to appeal" to draw an equivalence entirely misses the point. What's novel and scary about the social credit system is that political actions like criticizing the government or associating with activists could hurt your score. It's not scoped to financial activity like western systems. If I have a low FICO score, I'm 100% certain that it's not because I didn't vote for Trump.
  - lmm 8y ago
    > What's novel and scary about the social credit system is that political actions like criticizing the government or associating with activists could hurt your score. It's not scoped to financial activity like western systems. If I have a low FICO score, I'm 100% certain that it's not because I didn't vote for Trump. What gives you that certainty? I worked on this stuff in the finance industry a few years back. Even at that stage we were taking any available data and throwing it into opaque machine learning models, and using those to make lending decisions. There was no nefarious intent, but it's not like we had (or cared to have) any way to exclude political affiliation effects either.
    - monocasa 8y ago
      If I had an arrest at a protest that was expunged officially but still recorded by third parties, would that probably affect lending decisions?
      - lmm 8y ago
        Would it explicitly be taken into account? No. Would being the kind of person who'd get arrested at a protest be something our models could infer? Yes, though not at a high level of confidence. Would the specific fact of having been arrested have an effect? Probably not, unless they've got much better in the last few years. Would being the protesting sort affect lending decisions? If there was a correlation with non-repayment, yes, if not, no. We genuinely didn't care one way or another about that kind of thing, all we cared about was that the black box model could accurately predict how likely you were to default.
- cygx 8y ago
  if anything worse, since at least you can see your "social credit" score Travel restrictions or ineligibiliy for universities. Public shaming via automated voice messages or displays, denouncing you as dishonest. You don't think that's worse? Also note that in Germany, the right to be informed about any data companies may have on you has been law for a while. The EU-wide General Data Protection Regulation becomes enforceable next week.
  - lmm 8y ago
    Ineligibility for universities for opaque reasons happens in the west too. So does unaccountable public shaming - I don't think it being done manually rather than automatically makes it better. Knowing what information companies have on you doesn't actually help any - it means you know the inputs to their model, but not how they relate to the output. Freedom of movement and GDPR are good things. The EU is not (yet) China. But the social credit score is not the bogeyman people make it out to be - or, to the extent that it is, it's already here.
    - Lionsion 8y ago
      > Ineligibility for universities for opaque reasons happens in the west too. So does unaccountable public shaming - I don't think it being done manually rather than automatically makes it better. Knowing what information companies have on you doesn't actually help any - it means you know the inputs to their model, but not how they relate to the output. In the West, are those things engineered by the government on a mass scale to coerce political support for the regime and silence dissent?
      - lmm 8y ago
        No, on the whole. There is no grand conspiracy, just a lot of people looking for a quiet life, avoiding rocking the boat, and slightly favouring people like themselves. But the end result is almost the same.
- zip1234 8y ago
  Credit score is a private system where your ability to pay for things is assessed so loans are not given to people that don't pay them back. I don't see how that is anything like a government run "social credit" system. Also, you avoid even having a credit score if you just pay cash for everything.
  - lmm 8y ago
    > Credit score is a private system where your ability to pay for things is assessed so loans are not given to people that don't pay them back. I don't see how that is anything like a government run "social credit" system. I've never understood this American notion that just because a private company is doing something that makes it fine. If you can't get a loan and can't find out why, what difference does it make whether it was the government or a private entity that blocked you? > Also, you avoid even having a credit score if you just pay cash for everything. Sure, but at that point you're unable to participate in much of society, just like someone without a social credit score.
    - zip1234 8y ago
      "just because a private company is doing something that makes it fine" I didn't say that was what made it fine. I just said it is very different from a system that is government run and applies to everyone. Paying cash does not mean you're unable to participate in much of society. You can still use online services and do almost any transaction. Also, the outcome of a very bad credit score is that you have to pay cash for everything since nobody trusts that you will pay. The outcome of "social credit" is prison camp.
    - Lionsion 8y ago
      > I've never understood this American notion that just because a private company is doing something that makes it fine. If you can't get a loan and can't find out why, what difference does it make whether it was the government or a private entity that blocked you? A lot, actually. It might help you to understand if you realize it's not really about the loan. It's about the political control that such opaque denials can be used to implement. A private company, especially a large public one, has a lot fewer incentives for exerting political control over its customers than an authoritarian government over its people. The private company actually has a lot of incentives for not doing so, since that kind of thing can alienate customers.
jbob2000 8y ago
It’s unspoken, but it exists. Attended private school? Well-connected father? Donate to a political party? Yup, you’re good to do whatever you want! There is a trend in resume writing right now to include “rich people hobbies” such as skiing, horseback riding, mountain climbing, etc. because they signal affluence and make you more likely to be hired. Same shit as a social credit system, just a bit more hidden.
nitrogen 8y ago
Invisible data brokers trading the personal details of consumers for credit decisions, audience targeting (redlining by lack of awareness instead of explicit rejection), etc.

Care to carify? What would be the European equivalent of the Social Credit program?

by cygx 8y ago

Care to carify? What would be the European equivalent of the Social Credit program?

lmm 8y ago

Getting denied a bank account/job/housing rental/... for no clear reason and with no way to appeal is becoming increasingly common, and seems to have all the same negatives as the social credit program - if anything worse, since at least you can see your "social credit" score and have some idea of how to improve it.

Lionsion 8y ago
> Getting denied a bank account/job/housing rental/... for no clear reason and with no way to appeal is becoming increasingly common, and seems to have all the same negatives as the social credit program - if anything worse, since at least you can see your "social credit" score and have some idea of how to improve it. You seem to be confused about the salient differences between the social credit system and Western credit scores. Focusing on the fact that you can be "denied...for no clear reason or way to appeal" to draw an equivalence entirely misses the point. What's novel and scary about the social credit system is that political actions like criticizing the government or associating with activists could hurt your score. It's not scoped to financial activity like western systems. If I have a low FICO score, I'm 100% certain that it's not because I didn't vote for Trump.
- lmm 8y ago
  > What's novel and scary about the social credit system is that political actions like criticizing the government or associating with activists could hurt your score. It's not scoped to financial activity like western systems. If I have a low FICO score, I'm 100% certain that it's not because I didn't vote for Trump. What gives you that certainty? I worked on this stuff in the finance industry a few years back. Even at that stage we were taking any available data and throwing it into opaque machine learning models, and using those to make lending decisions. There was no nefarious intent, but it's not like we had (or cared to have) any way to exclude political affiliation effects either.
  - monocasa 8y ago
    If I had an arrest at a protest that was expunged officially but still recorded by third parties, would that probably affect lending decisions?
    - lmm 8y ago
      Would it explicitly be taken into account? No. Would being the kind of person who'd get arrested at a protest be something our models could infer? Yes, though not at a high level of confidence. Would the specific fact of having been arrested have an effect? Probably not, unless they've got much better in the last few years. Would being the protesting sort affect lending decisions? If there was a correlation with non-repayment, yes, if not, no. We genuinely didn't care one way or another about that kind of thing, all we cared about was that the black box model could accurately predict how likely you were to default.
cygx 8y ago
if anything worse, since at least you can see your "social credit" score Travel restrictions or ineligibiliy for universities. Public shaming via automated voice messages or displays, denouncing you as dishonest. You don't think that's worse? Also note that in Germany, the right to be informed about any data companies may have on you has been law for a while. The EU-wide General Data Protection Regulation becomes enforceable next week.
- lmm 8y ago
  Ineligibility for universities for opaque reasons happens in the west too. So does unaccountable public shaming - I don't think it being done manually rather than automatically makes it better. Knowing what information companies have on you doesn't actually help any - it means you know the inputs to their model, but not how they relate to the output. Freedom of movement and GDPR are good things. The EU is not (yet) China. But the social credit score is not the bogeyman people make it out to be - or, to the extent that it is, it's already here.
  - Lionsion 8y ago
    > Ineligibility for universities for opaque reasons happens in the west too. So does unaccountable public shaming - I don't think it being done manually rather than automatically makes it better. Knowing what information companies have on you doesn't actually help any - it means you know the inputs to their model, but not how they relate to the output. In the West, are those things engineered by the government on a mass scale to coerce political support for the regime and silence dissent?
    - lmm 8y ago
      No, on the whole. There is no grand conspiracy, just a lot of people looking for a quiet life, avoiding rocking the boat, and slightly favouring people like themselves. But the end result is almost the same.
zip1234 8y ago
Credit score is a private system where your ability to pay for things is assessed so loans are not given to people that don't pay them back. I don't see how that is anything like a government run "social credit" system. Also, you avoid even having a credit score if you just pay cash for everything.
- lmm 8y ago
  > Credit score is a private system where your ability to pay for things is assessed so loans are not given to people that don't pay them back. I don't see how that is anything like a government run "social credit" system. I've never understood this American notion that just because a private company is doing something that makes it fine. If you can't get a loan and can't find out why, what difference does it make whether it was the government or a private entity that blocked you? > Also, you avoid even having a credit score if you just pay cash for everything. Sure, but at that point you're unable to participate in much of society, just like someone without a social credit score.
  - zip1234 8y ago
    "just because a private company is doing something that makes it fine" I didn't say that was what made it fine. I just said it is very different from a system that is government run and applies to everyone. Paying cash does not mean you're unable to participate in much of society. You can still use online services and do almost any transaction. Also, the outcome of a very bad credit score is that you have to pay cash for everything since nobody trusts that you will pay. The outcome of "social credit" is prison camp.
  - Lionsion 8y ago
    > I've never understood this American notion that just because a private company is doing something that makes it fine. If you can't get a loan and can't find out why, what difference does it make whether it was the government or a private entity that blocked you? A lot, actually. It might help you to understand if you realize it's not really about the loan. It's about the political control that such opaque denials can be used to implement. A private company, especially a large public one, has a lot fewer incentives for exerting political control over its customers than an authoritarian government over its people. The private company actually has a lot of incentives for not doing so, since that kind of thing can alienate customers.

jbob2000 8y ago

It’s unspoken, but it exists. Attended private school? Well-connected father? Donate to a political party? Yup, you’re good to do whatever you want! There is a trend in resume writing right now to include “rich people hobbies” such as skiing, horseback riding, mountain climbing, etc. because they signal affluence and make you more likely to be hired. Same shit as a social credit system, just a bit more hidden.

nitrogen 8y ago

Invisible data brokers trading the personal details of consumers for credit decisions, audience targeting (redlining by lack of awareness instead of explicit rejection), etc.