5 ms·

«A the cost of a single bitcoin transaction (~300kW)» Transactions don't consume energy. This is the biggest misunderstanding floating around here. The transac

by mrb 8y ago

«A the cost of a single bitcoin transaction (~300kW)» Transactions don't consume energy. This is the biggest misunderstanding floating around here. The transaction rate could halve or double tomorrow without affecting the energy consumption of miners. Furthermore, it's a misleading statement because it implies Bitcoin's utility is equated solely to its transaction rate. The social benefits we extract from Bitcoin are much more than just a raw transaction processing system. For example: - Some Bitcoin users have become so wealthy that they are donating millions to charities, like the Pineapple Fund (https://pineapplefund.org/ https://pineapplefund.org/). - The mining industry is pushing so hard for low electricity prices that it is starting to accelerate the research & development of renewables (which are now the cheapest source of energy), helping the industry as a whole move away from fossil fuels. - A Venezuelan can escape the high inflation rate of his national currency by simply holding bitcoins (whether he withdraws/transacts from his "bitcoin savings" once or ten times a month doesn't really change the utility of the system for him) None of these points are taken into account if one simply looks at the transaction rate to determine whether Bitcoin's energy use is worth it or not.

SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
>Some Bitcoin users have become so wealthy that they are donating millions to charities Are you serious? Like, that’s a serious argument? Cartel bosses donate money... same thing right? >Transactions don't consume energy. This is the biggest misunderstanding floating around here. The misunderstanding is that you think there is a difference between transaction number and miner power. We don’t care. It’s the same thing because what we’re looking at is total power used (massive) and dividing it by a transaction number which is effective output which is transactions. Bitcoin is a resource waste, you’re defending it in part because “some people have donated to charity. Good luck with that.
- VMG 8y ago
  There can be an infinite number of off-chain transactions based on a single on-chain transaction.
  - spookthesunset 8y ago
    > There can be an infinite number of off-chain transactions based on a single on-chain transaction. What the fuck is the point of bitcoin if the majority of all transactions are off-chain?
    - VMG 8y ago
      The transactions are denominated in fucking Bitcoin, each party has the option to go off-chain without counterparty risk.
      - spookthesunset 8y ago
        > The transactions are denominated in fucking Bitcoin LOL. No transitions get denominated in BTC. Cyrpto is way to volatile for that. Anybody sane prices their stuff in USD or some other currency. Whether bitcoiners admit it or not, the fiat value of their internet tokens are the only thing they care about. What is their BTC worth and when can they go buy their lambo (using fiat, of course...)
        VMG 8y ago
        The lightning transactions are denominated in bitcoin.
- mrb 8y ago
  «effective output which is transactions» No. The "output" of Bitcoin is bigger than that. You focus on a single aspect of the system (processing transaction) and disregard everything else. You fail to look at the big picture, at what the system indirectly creates outside of transactions (helping people escape inflation, and yes redistributing wealth that is donated to charities, etc.) The point is: none of these benefits would exist if Bitcoin/cryptos didn't exist. Your argument is like saying that "cars are a waste" because one aspect of their operation (engines losing energy as heat) is waste.
thisisit 8y ago
> Transactions don't consume energy. Makes me wonder - what is your definition of a transaction? Traditionally a transaction is something which has been committed to the book or ledger. Transactions cannot exist out in the wild without being on the books. And the ledger creation in bitcoin doesn't happen until a block is mined. Block mining consumes energy. And hence, transactions consume energy too.
- VMG 8y ago
  Enter http://lightning.network/ http://lightning.network/
uryga 8y ago
> Some Bitcoin users have become so wealthy that they are donating millions to charities Couldn't you say that about anything that ever profited anyone? > The mining industry is pushing so hard for low electricity prices Does it have enough money/influence to make a difference here? I don't know, I'm just asking. > A Venezuelan can escape the high inflation rate of his national currency by simply holding bitcoins Wouldn't a real-world currency like $ work here too? What does Bitcoin add?

by mrb 8y ago

SlowRobotAhead 8y ago

>Some Bitcoin users have become so wealthy that they are donating millions to charities Are you serious? Like, that’s a serious argument? Cartel bosses donate money... same thing right? >Transactions don't consume energy. This is the biggest misunderstanding floating around here. The misunderstanding is that you think there is a difference between transaction number and miner power. We don’t care. It’s the same thing because what we’re looking at is total power used (massive) and dividing it by a transaction number which is effective output which is transactions. Bitcoin is a resource waste, you’re defending it in part because “some people have donated to charity. Good luck with that.

VMG 8y ago
There can be an infinite number of off-chain transactions based on a single on-chain transaction.
- spookthesunset 8y ago
  > There can be an infinite number of off-chain transactions based on a single on-chain transaction. What the fuck is the point of bitcoin if the majority of all transactions are off-chain?
  - VMG 8y ago
    The transactions are denominated in fucking Bitcoin, each party has the option to go off-chain without counterparty risk.
    - spookthesunset 8y ago
      > The transactions are denominated in fucking Bitcoin LOL. No transitions get denominated in BTC. Cyrpto is way to volatile for that. Anybody sane prices their stuff in USD or some other currency. Whether bitcoiners admit it or not, the fiat value of their internet tokens are the only thing they care about. What is their BTC worth and when can they go buy their lambo (using fiat, of course...)
      - VMG 8y ago
        The lightning transactions are denominated in bitcoin.
mrb 8y ago
«effective output which is transactions» No. The "output" of Bitcoin is bigger than that. You focus on a single aspect of the system (processing transaction) and disregard everything else. You fail to look at the big picture, at what the system indirectly creates outside of transactions (helping people escape inflation, and yes redistributing wealth that is donated to charities, etc.) The point is: none of these benefits would exist if Bitcoin/cryptos didn't exist. Your argument is like saying that "cars are a waste" because one aspect of their operation (engines losing energy as heat) is waste.

thisisit 8y ago

> Transactions don't consume energy. Makes me wonder - what is your definition of a transaction? Traditionally a transaction is something which has been committed to the book or ledger. Transactions cannot exist out in the wild without being on the books. And the ledger creation in bitcoin doesn't happen until a block is mined. Block mining consumes energy. And hence, transactions consume energy too.

VMG 8y ago
Enter http://lightning.network/ http://lightning.network/

uryga 8y ago

> Some Bitcoin users have become so wealthy that they are donating millions to charities Couldn't you say that about anything that ever profited anyone? > The mining industry is pushing so hard for low electricity prices Does it have enough money/influence to make a difference here? I don't know, I'm just asking. > A Venezuelan can escape the high inflation rate of his national currency by simply holding bitcoins Wouldn't a real-world currency like $ work here too? What does Bitcoin add?