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The question about how much costs a single bitcoin transaction is deeply flawed. The amount of transactions a bitcoin network can process does not directly depe

The question about how much costs a single bitcoin transaction is deeply flawed. The amount of transactions a bitcoin network can process does not directly depend on amount of electricity spent. Bitcoin network can work the same way using 10% of its current electricity consumption. Also, lightning network will allow for thousand times more transactions with same energy cost. Why is everyone obsessed with bitcoin electricity consumption? I wonder how much energy is required by the banking system to operate(imagine those thousands of people burning gas in cars to get to their daily work at bank). Humanity spends vast amount of energy on much more useless stuff with just entertainment value(World football cup, all those fans coming from different parts of world in the jets, logistics...) Also, energy is a resource like any other and it's generation and price is subject to supply/demand. The fact, that is is used on mining bitcoins just indicate, that people value bitcoin technology more than something else they would spend the electricity on.

Guvante 8y ago
> Also, energy is a resource like any other and it's generation and price is subject to supply/demand Actually most municipalities treat electricity like they treat water, more akin to a public utility. The actual cost isn't necessarily related to supply/demand. Normally this isn't a big deal as historically the electricity use either was minor (homes) or lead to economic growth (businesses) similarly most businesses would make specific deals if they had heavy use. Now Bitcoin threw a curve ball by allowing electricity -> money in a system not designed to make the cost of electricity support it. Yes the fundamental idea of Bitcoin is great but the current external cost to support the "investment market" is quite high.
- iainmerrick 8y ago
  I mostly agree, except that the fundamental idea is bad because it inevitably leads to an arms race between miners. Using more electricity gives you a bigger share of the pie, but doesn’t actually grow the pie. So the electricity is really wasted. And this at a time when our energy demand is contributing to climate change.
deadmetheny 8y ago
>Why is everyone obsessed with bitcoin electricity consumption? I wonder how much energy is required by the banking system to operate People care because Bitcoin is, by design, massively wasteful. The banking system's energy use can be curtailed with green tech. Bitcoin's entire ledger is powered by proof of work, which by definition requires computers to grind at maximum power calculating millions of hashes. And the difficulty goes up if more people are mining. And on top of that, the Bitcoin network is extremely slow and several orders of magnitude less efficient than other banking systems in terms of transactions per second. Everyone is obsessed because we're wasting damn near 1% of the world's energy so nerds can speculate on Dunning-Krugerrands and it's not doing anyone any favours in the long run.
- enkiie 8y ago
  > People care because Bitcoin is, by design, massively wasteful. The banking system's energy use can be curtailed with green tech. Still does not explain how the current banking industry along with others, such as the entertainment industry is not "massively wasteful" by design. Sure, maybe a small portion of the banking system's energy can be curtailed with green tech, but what about the 24 hour ATM, the light posts at the banks, the AC units in each branch, the massive skyscrapers in which all of the banks corporate offices operate? and the energy required to build all of that infrastructure? As stated already, there are countless number of things that "waste energy", and in some cases "by design". Check out "b.s. jobs" on wikipedia.
  - SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
    >but what about the 24 hour ATM :D how many hours of an ATM running do you think it takes to get to 300kW or 1 single bitcoin transaction? I’m going to guess that a single ATM might not hit 300kW in a year. Your sense is scale is way wrong.
    - enkiie 8y ago
      You're right, I didn't keep scale in mind when listing examples. Didn't think it mattered since there are hundreds of relevant things that consume energy at different scales. Next time I'll avoid listing things that can be cherrypicked to make a relevant counter argument.
TomK32 8y ago
The world's banking system is at around 500 Billion transactions per year https://www.worldpaymentsreport.com/reports/noncash https://www.worldpaymentsreport.com/reports/noncash while bitcoin has a mere 200 thousand per day https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions Even if the banking system (not sure why you include commuters, but then we should also include bitcoin lambos) were to consume the same amount of power it would still handle 2.5 million times (edit: >6000 times) as many transactions.
- seunosewa 8y ago
  Note that 200,000 transactions per day equals 63 million transactions per year. It’s hard to compare figures if the units are different.
  - TomK32 8y ago
    oh, sorry. my mistake. still something like 6000 times more transactions than bitcoin.
    - lostmsu 8y ago
      To multiply your mistake, those Bitcoin transactions in the chart can be multiparty transactions, where, for example, a store issues all the daily refunds to its customers in a single transaction. Basically, a better metric is needed.
      - mido22 8y ago
        Also, lightning network needs to be taken into consideration. But does anyone have exact stats for that?
spookthesunset 8y ago
> Bitcoin network can work the same way using 10% of its current electricity consumption. Except by design, bitcoin miners are incentivized to consume more energy the higher the price goes. If they don't consume as much energy as they possibly can, their mining pool will have less of a chance to get that sweet, sweet block reward (....to convert back into an actual currency in order to, you know, pay their bills and stuff....) > Also, lightning network will allow for thousand times more transactions with same energy cost. If the solution to bitcoin's horrific energy consumption is to not use bitcoin.... what is the point of bitcoin? > The fact, that is is used on mining bitcoins just indicate, that people value bitcoin technology more than something else they would spend the electricity on. It is valued as a speculative asset and an excellent way to launder ill-gotten money. It's only use is for scams. Bitcoin generates a massive negative externality in that it drives up the costs of electricity for all the people who are doing actual productive things with it. The whole thing is a abhorrent waste and supporters like yourself should be absolutely ashamed of yourselves for defending it (using some of the most paper-thin arguments, I might add...).
- VMG 8y ago
  > If the solution to bitcoin's horrific energy consumption is to not use bitcoin.... what is the point of bitcoin? The lightning network IS Bitcoin, just as using HTTP over TCP is using TCP. > The whole thing is a abhorrent waste and supporters like yourself should be absolutely ashamed of yourselves for defending it. It's the only way to survive economically in repressive states.
  - spookthesunset 8y ago
    > The lightning network IS Bitcoin, just as using HTTP over TCP is using TCP. So its got a decentralized, distributed public ledger recording every transaction made? Since when did that happen? > It's the only way to survive economically in repressive states. LOL. No. You use USD.... No citizens in economically repressive states are gonna flip to bitcoin. Not when it gets 4 transactions per second tops. Not when you have to purchase your currency from early adopters in order to participate. Not when you can lose your entire savings by simply exposing your computer to the internet. Sorry man. You fell for a scam.

Guvante 8y ago

> Also, energy is a resource like any other and it's generation and price is subject to supply/demand Actually most municipalities treat electricity like they treat water, more akin to a public utility. The actual cost isn't necessarily related to supply/demand. Normally this isn't a big deal as historically the electricity use either was minor (homes) or lead to economic growth (businesses) similarly most businesses would make specific deals if they had heavy use. Now Bitcoin threw a curve ball by allowing electricity -> money in a system not designed to make the cost of electricity support it. Yes the fundamental idea of Bitcoin is great but the current external cost to support the "investment market" is quite high.

iainmerrick 8y ago
I mostly agree, except that the fundamental idea is bad because it inevitably leads to an arms race between miners. Using more electricity gives you a bigger share of the pie, but doesn’t actually grow the pie. So the electricity is really wasted. And this at a time when our energy demand is contributing to climate change.

deadmetheny 8y ago

>Why is everyone obsessed with bitcoin electricity consumption? I wonder how much energy is required by the banking system to operate People care because Bitcoin is, by design, massively wasteful. The banking system's energy use can be curtailed with green tech. Bitcoin's entire ledger is powered by proof of work, which by definition requires computers to grind at maximum power calculating millions of hashes. And the difficulty goes up if more people are mining. And on top of that, the Bitcoin network is extremely slow and several orders of magnitude less efficient than other banking systems in terms of transactions per second. Everyone is obsessed because we're wasting damn near 1% of the world's energy so nerds can speculate on Dunning-Krugerrands and it's not doing anyone any favours in the long run.

enkiie 8y ago
> People care because Bitcoin is, by design, massively wasteful. The banking system's energy use can be curtailed with green tech. Still does not explain how the current banking industry along with others, such as the entertainment industry is not "massively wasteful" by design. Sure, maybe a small portion of the banking system's energy can be curtailed with green tech, but what about the 24 hour ATM, the light posts at the banks, the AC units in each branch, the massive skyscrapers in which all of the banks corporate offices operate? and the energy required to build all of that infrastructure? As stated already, there are countless number of things that "waste energy", and in some cases "by design". Check out "b.s. jobs" on wikipedia.
- SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
  >but what about the 24 hour ATM :D how many hours of an ATM running do you think it takes to get to 300kW or 1 single bitcoin transaction? I’m going to guess that a single ATM might not hit 300kW in a year. Your sense is scale is way wrong.
  - enkiie 8y ago
    You're right, I didn't keep scale in mind when listing examples. Didn't think it mattered since there are hundreds of relevant things that consume energy at different scales. Next time I'll avoid listing things that can be cherrypicked to make a relevant counter argument.

TomK32 8y ago

The world's banking system is at around 500 Billion transactions per year https://www.worldpaymentsreport.com/reports/noncash https://www.worldpaymentsreport.com/reports/noncash while bitcoin has a mere 200 thousand per day https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions Even if the banking system (not sure why you include commuters, but then we should also include bitcoin lambos) were to consume the same amount of power it would still handle 2.5 million times (edit: >6000 times) as many transactions.

seunosewa 8y ago
Note that 200,000 transactions per day equals 63 million transactions per year. It’s hard to compare figures if the units are different.
- TomK32 8y ago
  oh, sorry. my mistake. still something like 6000 times more transactions than bitcoin.
  - lostmsu 8y ago
    To multiply your mistake, those Bitcoin transactions in the chart can be multiparty transactions, where, for example, a store issues all the daily refunds to its customers in a single transaction. Basically, a better metric is needed.
    - mido22 8y ago
      Also, lightning network needs to be taken into consideration. But does anyone have exact stats for that?

spookthesunset 8y ago

> Bitcoin network can work the same way using 10% of its current electricity consumption. Except by design, bitcoin miners are incentivized to consume more energy the higher the price goes. If they don't consume as much energy as they possibly can, their mining pool will have less of a chance to get that sweet, sweet block reward (....to convert back into an actual currency in order to, you know, pay their bills and stuff....) > Also, lightning network will allow for thousand times more transactions with same energy cost. If the solution to bitcoin's horrific energy consumption is to not use bitcoin.... what is the point of bitcoin? > The fact, that is is used on mining bitcoins just indicate, that people value bitcoin technology more than something else they would spend the electricity on. It is valued as a speculative asset and an excellent way to launder ill-gotten money. It's only use is for scams. Bitcoin generates a massive negative externality in that it drives up the costs of electricity for all the people who are doing actual productive things with it. The whole thing is a abhorrent waste and supporters like yourself should be absolutely ashamed of yourselves for defending it (using some of the most paper-thin arguments, I might add...).

VMG 8y ago
> If the solution to bitcoin's horrific energy consumption is to not use bitcoin.... what is the point of bitcoin? The lightning network IS Bitcoin, just as using HTTP over TCP is using TCP. > The whole thing is a abhorrent waste and supporters like yourself should be absolutely ashamed of yourselves for defending it. It's the only way to survive economically in repressive states.
- spookthesunset 8y ago
  > The lightning network IS Bitcoin, just as using HTTP over TCP is using TCP. So its got a decentralized, distributed public ledger recording every transaction made? Since when did that happen? > It's the only way to survive economically in repressive states. LOL. No. You use USD.... No citizens in economically repressive states are gonna flip to bitcoin. Not when it gets 4 transactions per second tops. Not when you have to purchase your currency from early adopters in order to participate. Not when you can lose your entire savings by simply exposing your computer to the internet. Sorry man. You fell for a scam.