5 ms·

> also because alternatives exist, making it hard to imagine what the market for CFC-11 today would be. Well I've heard of someone who was stockpiling and was

by rdtsc 8y ago

> also because alternatives exist, making it hard to imagine what the market for CFC-11 today would be. Well I've heard of someone who was stockpiling and was planning to sell banned Freon. That was years ago. There is a black market for it because equipment that uses it doesn't simply work on newer approved stuff. If I randomly heard about it, chances are there are more insantces of it. And if there is demand someone probably spun up a factory to make it.

NedIsakoff 8y ago
CFC-11 is cheaper then alternatives. If I'm a shady factory owner making cheap fridges for shady countries, who is gonna complain?
- evek 8y ago
  Shady countries? Those are people and regular families...
  - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
    Why does that idea repulse you? We see it regularly with countries high on the corruption scale. And given what we know about the tragedy of the commons, it makes sense to make money on a global tragedy (CFCs). I (a CFC producer) can make more than the loss everyone takes. Transparency International tries to uncover "shady" countries. You can see the results here: https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2017 https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_percept... To be honest, a good chunk of Europe and North America aren't terrible. There's room to be better. I'll let the data determine your decision. Edit: Boy, the groupthink is strong in here. -1 for actually questioning bad practices in corrupt governments, and providing data and a tie-in to a likely phenomenon why.. And I attract trolls. Sigh.
    - SanityIsRare 8y ago
      Honestly, as a third-world citizen, I just can't fathom why anyone here would give a shit about ozone layer. We are extremely dismissive of those issues here because we care about the future of humanity and Earth a lot less that first-world populace. We have no incentive to protect the Earth so that children of first-worlders can live healthily in 2050 whenever. You fucked us all up with colonialism and whatnot, and you still keep exploiting us like mad (not hyperbole - I get to see it). I guess payback will be sweet.
      - Retric 8y ago
        Impact would be larger on the third world than the first. Increased sunscreen use when outside and lower crop yields.
      - frockington 8y ago
        Playing the victim is probably the worst approach to take as it benefits nobody. And the irony behind your hope for payback is that the third world people will be hit the hardest by any environmental disaster
        StopCensoringMe 8y ago
        At what point does it turn from "playing the victim" to "being the victim"? I swear, you people will do anything to justify your oppression. I don't care, as long as it hurts you too then I'm totally okay with it.
      - hollerith 8y ago
        You're probably lying about being a third-world citizen because you think the lie makes your comment more persuasive.
      - jessaustin 8y ago
        Your optimism seems misplaced. Historically, winners thrive and losers disappear. If we're going to burn for what we're doing, it probably won't be in this world.
      - jpmoral 8y ago
    - evek 8y ago
      Your logic and economic explanations are sensible. The term "shady countries" was the phrase I reacted upon, and only that. Shady government officials, businessmen, deals? Sure. Shady countries? It sounds extremely wide and viewed from a position of privilege.
      - rdtsc 8y ago
        It's in the context of regulating harmful CFCs, I think it's pretty clear "shady" means corrupt? > It sounds extremely wide and viewed from a position of privilege. Ah well. I am not the one who used the phrase. But I lived in a shady country, if I criticize it and call it corrupt and shady do I get pass of not being from position of privilege?
  - SanityIsRare 8y ago
    I live in one of those "shady" countries and I wish that I was never born.
    - kbutler 8y ago
      Please get help to realize your value and the opportunities you have to contribute positively to your area and the world. You can be a force for good if you choose. This assumes you're not just trolling, but actually, it applies if you are trolling as well.
      - SanityIsRare 8y ago
        You made most of my waking life miserable and now you have guts to ask me to push your interests forward by labeling it "force for good" and ask me to do value-searching to find my inner Stockholm-syndrome. Go f*ck yourself.
    - reitanqild 8y ago
      > I live in one of those "shady" countries You keep mentioning this. Were you born there or did you move there?
  - ataturk 8y ago
    It's just China doing it. Why is this any mystery? What is mysterious is why the media can't just tell us the truth.
  - TelAvivHacker 8y ago
    You're both right! There are regular people and regular families living under very corrupt and "shady" government regimes.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  > CFC-11 is cheaper then alternatives. Is it actually cheaper to manufacture CFC-11 over other refrigerants? Since it's being done illegally, obviously no royalties or licensing would be involved. It's just a matter of actual cost to manufacture.
- rdtsc 8y ago
  Not sure why you're downvoted. But in general that's probably the attitude. Can't say if it is just cheaper, but it is more efficient. It has a high boiling point, so you don't need as high of a pressure. That means can design the installation with less tolerances, not as powerful of a compressor etc. Moreover if you already have setup that works, you don't have to spend money to retrofit it.
kissickas 8y ago
Similarly, I know of someone who was manufacturing a CFC in the US before it was banned. He sold huge stockpiles to South American buyers in advance of the treaty taking effect, making more money then than before simply due to selling such a large volume in such a short time. It doesn't matter if alternatives exist now; someone made that huge purchase back then, they're not going to destroy all of their stock unless they're caught or afraid of being caught.
- CompelTechnic 8y ago
  It is interesting to see how the current dwindling stockpiles of R-12 are being treated. See this ebay listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/R-12-Refrigerant-3-Du-Pont-Freon-Cans-Usa-made-Genuine-12oz-Cans/222541511616?hash=item33d081fbc0:g:oaEAAOSwv95Z32Sv https://www.ebay.com/itm/R-12-Refrigerant-3-Du-Pont-Freon-Ca... I'm sure that every person buying cans on ebay is either a certified technician or buying them "solely for the purpose of reselling them to an EPA certified technician".
cptskippy 8y ago
> Well I've heard of someone who was stockpiling and was planning to sell banned Freon. That's not a bad investment opportunity. Freon prices in HVAC maintenance have risen dramatically in the past couple years. According to the technician who serviced my mom's system Monday, it was $100/lb last year and is $170/lb this year.
- jaclaz 8y ago
  Casually I was just speaking about this with my HVAC technician yesterday and he told me that here (Italy) the raise was even steeper, something like 2.5 or 3 times over the last two-three years (cannot remember the actual prices he told me).
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>There is a black market for it because equipment that uses it doesn't simply work on newer approved stuff. There's a black market because laymen flip out if you tell them you're refilling their A/C with propane/butane and lubricants.
- rhombocombus 8y ago
  Aren't there documented cases of r600 explosions when used in non r600 equipment? I mean, my chest freezer uses butane, but it was built for it. My refrigeration training is limited so I am genuinely curious, I was always taught to NEVER mix refrigerants or attempt a retrofit like that, but I could be wrong/ignorant.

by rdtsc 8y ago

NedIsakoff 8y ago

CFC-11 is cheaper then alternatives. If I'm a shady factory owner making cheap fridges for shady countries, who is gonna complain?

evek 8y ago
Shady countries? Those are people and regular families...
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  Why does that idea repulse you? We see it regularly with countries high on the corruption scale. And given what we know about the tragedy of the commons, it makes sense to make money on a global tragedy (CFCs). I (a CFC producer) can make more than the loss everyone takes. Transparency International tries to uncover "shady" countries. You can see the results here: https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2017 https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_percept... To be honest, a good chunk of Europe and North America aren't terrible. There's room to be better. I'll let the data determine your decision. Edit: Boy, the groupthink is strong in here. -1 for actually questioning bad practices in corrupt governments, and providing data and a tie-in to a likely phenomenon why.. And I attract trolls. Sigh.
  - SanityIsRare 8y ago
    Honestly, as a third-world citizen, I just can't fathom why anyone here would give a shit about ozone layer. We are extremely dismissive of those issues here because we care about the future of humanity and Earth a lot less that first-world populace. We have no incentive to protect the Earth so that children of first-worlders can live healthily in 2050 whenever. You fucked us all up with colonialism and whatnot, and you still keep exploiting us like mad (not hyperbole - I get to see it). I guess payback will be sweet.
    - Retric 8y ago
      Impact would be larger on the third world than the first. Increased sunscreen use when outside and lower crop yields.
    - frockington 8y ago
      Playing the victim is probably the worst approach to take as it benefits nobody. And the irony behind your hope for payback is that the third world people will be hit the hardest by any environmental disaster
      - StopCensoringMe 8y ago
        At what point does it turn from "playing the victim" to "being the victim"? I swear, you people will do anything to justify your oppression. I don't care, as long as it hurts you too then I'm totally okay with it.
    - hollerith 8y ago
      You're probably lying about being a third-world citizen because you think the lie makes your comment more persuasive.
    - jessaustin 8y ago
      Your optimism seems misplaced. Historically, winners thrive and losers disappear. If we're going to burn for what we're doing, it probably won't be in this world.
    - jpmoral 8y ago
  - evek 8y ago
    Your logic and economic explanations are sensible. The term "shady countries" was the phrase I reacted upon, and only that. Shady government officials, businessmen, deals? Sure. Shady countries? It sounds extremely wide and viewed from a position of privilege.
    - rdtsc 8y ago
      It's in the context of regulating harmful CFCs, I think it's pretty clear "shady" means corrupt? > It sounds extremely wide and viewed from a position of privilege. Ah well. I am not the one who used the phrase. But I lived in a shady country, if I criticize it and call it corrupt and shady do I get pass of not being from position of privilege?
- SanityIsRare 8y ago
  I live in one of those "shady" countries and I wish that I was never born.
  - kbutler 8y ago
    Please get help to realize your value and the opportunities you have to contribute positively to your area and the world. You can be a force for good if you choose. This assumes you're not just trolling, but actually, it applies if you are trolling as well.
    - SanityIsRare 8y ago
      You made most of my waking life miserable and now you have guts to ask me to push your interests forward by labeling it "force for good" and ask me to do value-searching to find my inner Stockholm-syndrome. Go f*ck yourself.
  - reitanqild 8y ago
    > I live in one of those "shady" countries You keep mentioning this. Were you born there or did you move there?
- ataturk 8y ago
  It's just China doing it. Why is this any mystery? What is mysterious is why the media can't just tell us the truth.
- TelAvivHacker 8y ago
  You're both right! There are regular people and regular families living under very corrupt and "shady" government regimes.
cptskippy 8y ago
> CFC-11 is cheaper then alternatives. Is it actually cheaper to manufacture CFC-11 over other refrigerants? Since it's being done illegally, obviously no royalties or licensing would be involved. It's just a matter of actual cost to manufacture.
rdtsc 8y ago
Not sure why you're downvoted. But in general that's probably the attitude. Can't say if it is just cheaper, but it is more efficient. It has a high boiling point, so you don't need as high of a pressure. That means can design the installation with less tolerances, not as powerful of a compressor etc. Moreover if you already have setup that works, you don't have to spend money to retrofit it.

kissickas 8y ago

Similarly, I know of someone who was manufacturing a CFC in the US before it was banned. He sold huge stockpiles to South American buyers in advance of the treaty taking effect, making more money then than before simply due to selling such a large volume in such a short time. It doesn't matter if alternatives exist now; someone made that huge purchase back then, they're not going to destroy all of their stock unless they're caught or afraid of being caught.

CompelTechnic 8y ago
It is interesting to see how the current dwindling stockpiles of R-12 are being treated. See this ebay listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/R-12-Refrigerant-3-Du-Pont-Freon-Cans-Usa-made-Genuine-12oz-Cans/222541511616?hash=item33d081fbc0:g:oaEAAOSwv95Z32Sv https://www.ebay.com/itm/R-12-Refrigerant-3-Du-Pont-Freon-Ca... I'm sure that every person buying cans on ebay is either a certified technician or buying them "solely for the purpose of reselling them to an EPA certified technician".

cptskippy 8y ago

> Well I've heard of someone who was stockpiling and was planning to sell banned Freon. That's not a bad investment opportunity. Freon prices in HVAC maintenance have risen dramatically in the past couple years. According to the technician who serviced my mom's system Monday, it was $100/lb last year and is $170/lb this year.

jaclaz 8y ago
Casually I was just speaking about this with my HVAC technician yesterday and he told me that here (Italy) the raise was even steeper, something like 2.5 or 3 times over the last two-three years (cannot remember the actual prices he told me).

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

>There is a black market for it because equipment that uses it doesn't simply work on newer approved stuff. There's a black market because laymen flip out if you tell them you're refilling their A/C with propane/butane and lubricants.

rhombocombus 8y ago
Aren't there documented cases of r600 explosions when used in non r600 equipment? I mean, my chest freezer uses butane, but it was built for it. My refrigeration training is limited so I am genuinely curious, I was always taught to NEVER mix refrigerants or attempt a retrofit like that, but I could be wrong/ignorant.