5 ms·

Don't take it too seriously. It's a kinda stupid rant. (I wrote it.)

by pwpwp 16y ago

calibraxis 16y ago
That's the fastest I've ever seen an author of such a Common Lisp rant point out that you're not supposed to take it too seriously. (By "such a rant", I mean the tradition of rants which purport to turn Common Lisp's negatives into positives, where the smugness is joyously dialled up to 11.)
- pwpwp 16y ago
  It's not a CL rant.
  - calibraxis 16y ago
    I've read your blog, so I'm aware that you don't consider it such, just as the creator of Clojure might take issue with your claim that "Clojure ignores Lisp." But it shares many family resemblances with the Common Lisp rant. For instance: * It typically subsumes Scheme, Interlisp, etc into "Lisp". (Regardless of whether, in other contexts, the author argues they're not Lisps.) * Others are dismissed as "unwashed masses", while the "so many smart people" in the Lisp community obviously thought of your new innovation and either dismissed it or had other things to do than implement it. * It purports to turn a commonly-believed negative into a positive. * Uses questionable but nuanced logic. * The author seems to at least partially believe in the rant's gist, as far as anyone can tell. I'm not necessarily arguing it's a bad thing, just a tradition that people might want to keep in mind with a dose of humor.
- nkassis 16y ago
  That's because only CL can go to 11 all the other Lisp can only go to 10. Unless you defmacro 10 to be 11 EDIT: I guess I have terrible humor ;p Moving it to reddit
hga 16y ago
A very ... let me say, ahistorical rant, starting at the very beginning: "Lisp gets lexical scope right, for example, simply because we have a head start of decades over the [line out]competition[/line out] others." Case in point: LISP didn't get this right in 1958 while apparently in the same year (as I read Wikipedia) ALGOL did. This caused a lot of grief which wasn't resolved until 1983 when Common Lisp adopted Scheme's ALGOL inspired lexical scoping. And Emacs Lisp and AutoLISP (AutoCad), two very big (in terms of real world usage) Lisps are dynamically scoped. Lisp has much to be proud of, but this could easily be the single worst aspect of it historically.
- lispm 16y ago
  ALGOL did, but it had it easy, because it was not providing closures and garbage collection. When ALGOL had lexical scoping, these things were unresearched. It took a while in the Lisp and FP community to solve this (see the FUNARG problem).
  - hga 16y ago
    LISP wasn't providing closures at that point (1958), was it? I've read that the LISP community was the only major part of the FP community that had trouble with this and that the other parts were always confused about why this caused such consternation with LISP.
    - lispm 16y ago
      No language had lexical closures in 1958. ALGOL had lexical scope, but not closures. So their part was easy. On a language level all the consequences were explored with Scheme in the 70s. Before that their were individual solutions found to create closures. Read the history of the FUNARG problem (1970). FP languages came up later. The first ML appeared in something like 1972/1973. I'm not sure if that had lexical closures. I doubt that. The Lisp community was one active part of the FP community that detected the problem and eventually found a solution. Scheme was the first language to demonstrate that (1975). Other FP languages also went that route (ML, where the first ML was implemented on top of Lisp, IIRC). The MacLisp branch took some time to adopt lexical closures. First a special construct was introduced to create a closure. In some other implementations the compiler was using lexical scope, but not the interpreter. Common Lisp was then in 1984 the next major Lisp dialect that settled for lexical scope (incl. closures) for both interpreted and compiled code. The Lisp community (other than Scheme) had substantial code at the end of the 1970s, so there was some reluctance to move to lexical closures. Lexical closures also made the implementation a bit more difficult. The interpreter is simpler without them. There were also performance issues to overcome.
chris_j 16y ago
Would you mind explaining it further? I took it to be from the perspective of the history of programming languages. It sounds like you think that Clojure can't be regarded as an important Lisp at this time because it's only been around for a few years and it will take decades before we have enough perspective to know whether any of the ideas in Clojure will turn out to be significant. How does that sound? This is very different to my perspective. I like Clojure for two reasons: 1) It's a Lisp (and I rather like many Lisp features) 2) It's an accessible Lisp. I found it to be easier for me to learn get stated with than Comon Lisp which I had previously tried to learn and had not gotten far with. One consequence of 2) may be that Clojure will turn out to be rather significant, regardless of whether any of its individual features are all that great. Clojure may succeed because it is an accessible Lisp.
- pwpwp 16y ago
  What I don't like about Clojure is that it leaves out some features which I love about other Lisps. See this post: http://axisofeval.blogspot.com/2010/04/dylan-and-lisp-family-trees-central.html http://axisofeval.blogspot.com/2010/04/dylan-and-lisp-family...

Don't take it too seriously. It's a kinda stupid rant. (I wrote it.)

by pwpwp 16y ago

Don't take it too seriously. It's a kinda stupid rant. (I wrote it.)

That's the fastest I've ever seen an author of such a Common Lisp rant point out that you're not supposed to take it too seriously. (By "such a rant", I mean the tradition of rants which purport to turn Common Lisp's negatives into positives, where the smugness is joyously dialled up to 11.)

pwpwp 16y ago
It's not a CL rant.
- calibraxis 16y ago
  I've read your blog, so I'm aware that you don't consider it such, just as the creator of Clojure might take issue with your claim that "Clojure ignores Lisp." But it shares many family resemblances with the Common Lisp rant. For instance: * It typically subsumes Scheme, Interlisp, etc into "Lisp". (Regardless of whether, in other contexts, the author argues they're not Lisps.) * Others are dismissed as "unwashed masses", while the "so many smart people" in the Lisp community obviously thought of your new innovation and either dismissed it or had other things to do than implement it. * It purports to turn a commonly-believed negative into a positive. * Uses questionable but nuanced logic. * The author seems to at least partially believe in the rant's gist, as far as anyone can tell. I'm not necessarily arguing it's a bad thing, just a tradition that people might want to keep in mind with a dose of humor.
nkassis 16y ago
That's because only CL can go to 11 all the other Lisp can only go to 10. Unless you defmacro 10 to be 11 EDIT: I guess I have terrible humor ;p Moving it to reddit

hga 16y ago

A very ... let me say, ahistorical rant, starting at the very beginning: "Lisp gets lexical scope right, for example, simply because we have a head start of decades over the [line out]competition[/line out] others." Case in point: LISP didn't get this right in 1958 while apparently in the same year (as I read Wikipedia) ALGOL did. This caused a lot of grief which wasn't resolved until 1983 when Common Lisp adopted Scheme's ALGOL inspired lexical scoping. And Emacs Lisp and AutoLISP (AutoCad), two very big (in terms of real world usage) Lisps are dynamically scoped. Lisp has much to be proud of, but this could easily be the single worst aspect of it historically.

lispm 16y ago
ALGOL did, but it had it easy, because it was not providing closures and garbage collection. When ALGOL had lexical scoping, these things were unresearched. It took a while in the Lisp and FP community to solve this (see the FUNARG problem).
- hga 16y ago
  LISP wasn't providing closures at that point (1958), was it? I've read that the LISP community was the only major part of the FP community that had trouble with this and that the other parts were always confused about why this caused such consternation with LISP.
  - lispm 16y ago
    No language had lexical closures in 1958. ALGOL had lexical scope, but not closures. So their part was easy. On a language level all the consequences were explored with Scheme in the 70s. Before that their were individual solutions found to create closures. Read the history of the FUNARG problem (1970). FP languages came up later. The first ML appeared in something like 1972/1973. I'm not sure if that had lexical closures. I doubt that. The Lisp community was one active part of the FP community that detected the problem and eventually found a solution. Scheme was the first language to demonstrate that (1975). Other FP languages also went that route (ML, where the first ML was implemented on top of Lisp, IIRC). The MacLisp branch took some time to adopt lexical closures. First a special construct was introduced to create a closure. In some other implementations the compiler was using lexical scope, but not the interpreter. Common Lisp was then in 1984 the next major Lisp dialect that settled for lexical scope (incl. closures) for both interpreted and compiled code. The Lisp community (other than Scheme) had substantial code at the end of the 1970s, so there was some reluctance to move to lexical closures. Lexical closures also made the implementation a bit more difficult. The interpreter is simpler without them. There were also performance issues to overcome.

chris_j 16y ago

Would you mind explaining it further? I took it to be from the perspective of the history of programming languages. It sounds like you think that Clojure can't be regarded as an important Lisp at this time because it's only been around for a few years and it will take decades before we have enough perspective to know whether any of the ideas in Clojure will turn out to be significant. How does that sound? This is very different to my perspective. I like Clojure for two reasons: 1) It's a Lisp (and I rather like many Lisp features) 2) It's an accessible Lisp. I found it to be easier for me to learn get stated with than Comon Lisp which I had previously tried to learn and had not gotten far with. One consequence of 2) may be that Clojure will turn out to be rather significant, regardless of whether any of its individual features are all that great. Clojure may succeed because it is an accessible Lisp.

pwpwp 16y ago
What I don't like about Clojure is that it leaves out some features which I love about other Lisps. See this post: http://axisofeval.blogspot.com/2010/04/dylan-and-lisp-family-trees-central.html http://axisofeval.blogspot.com/2010/04/dylan-and-lisp-family...