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I used to hate JS because the language is objectively badly designed, but then I realized that the merits of the language provide a glimpse of the future of pro

by shiado 8y ago

I used to hate JS because the language is objectively badly designed, but then I realized that the merits of the language provide a glimpse of the future of programming. Most programming problems people have are highly generic, often looking to implement something completely off the shelf as far as problems go. Wheels can only be reinvented so many times in so many ways. To me the JS ecosystem offers a level of high level programming that you just don't get in other languages. Nothing comes close. There is a package for every possible problem you have just waiting to be used. You wan't some complicated auth feature? Consider it done with one require statement and calling a function to set a configuration. You want some reusable components for your frontend to solve some complicated issue? Somebody has a crazy React package doing exactly what you need. Obviously there are security concerns with this but that is a totally separate topic. In the future programmers won't be replaced by robots, they will be replaced by import statements.

nomy99 8y ago
"In the future programmers won't be replaced by robots, they will be replaced by import statements." I disagree. How is this different from someone 20 years ago saying programmers will be replaced by jar files.
- andrewmcwatters 8y ago
  Yeah, the reality is some of us got replaced by Adobe and Salesforce.
  - nomy99 8y ago
    So you are saying you couldn't apply your skills as a java developer anymore because of salesforce?
- ourmandave 8y ago
  Even if it does come down to just import statements they'll still be plenty of jobs. Since the deploy tools are rewritten or replaced every couple months somebody has to maintain the build process.
bitL 8y ago
> highly generic, often looking to implement something completely off the shelf as far as problems go. There is serious work being undergone in automating this using advanced ML. In 5-10 years most of these problems will be LEGO-ized and humans won't be needed on that level. So your generic JavaScript developer used to glue these pieces will be gone.
- woah 8y ago
  That’s been 5-10 years out since the 50’s, right?
  - bitL 8y ago
    Yeah, but this time we actually seem to have some half-functioning ML in form of Deep (Reinforcement) Learning, which we didn't have before. You can't expect all issues will be automated away, but more like a gradual process when more and more tasks will be, and companies competing with each other on who finds a new way to automate something, like we saw with any explosive R&D in the past.
- nomy99 8y ago
  why is it that in all advancement of machine learning and AI prophecies, the developer becomes obsolete. Remember, we are automating systems and technology to advance our species when facing tougher problems. The rise of AI and machine learning came out of the necessity of faster computers and a bigger connected community of humans and devices. Turnaround time for features and business value also is driving this innovation. As systems get more complicated, the roles of developers will change, not be obsolete. For a developer to cease to exist, humanity itself would have to change. When you imply technology being created and managed its own, the implications to society are huge. I might even argue that the species survival would even be at risk here. I think in the foreseeable future, developers would interface with ever more smart and complete features.
  - bitL 8y ago
    I am working in that area myself, maybe I am just better informed and convinced by what I experimented with. Even Adobe is now doing LEGO-esque photo editing and looking for testers. When we get those things to production, there will be serious shift in basic-level developer demand; those will be likely out of luck soon. Most people would be able to assemble a simple app covering many of their needs just by dictating to their phones what would they expect to see and pre-baked LEGO blocks will be applied. Imagine fun with Minecraft but this time with blocks of properly encapsulated code, real-time using voice, touch and eye tracking.
DarkCrusader2 8y ago
Not to attack you personally, but it seems like you have never written software professionally. All the available packages you mention quickly become useless as soon as you have a use case that is not in the package's, often very short, README. More often than not, you need functionality which is at the intersection of what is provided by 2 or more packages with no easy means to make them work with one another nicely, so you basically have to write one for yourself. And when you remove all these useless packages, you get a set of useful packages which are not unique to javascript but can be found in any mature language.
- peterbraden 8y ago
  You did attack them personally. The JS module ecosystem is far ahead of most other languages for web stuff. Most of the time the modules are perfectly sufficient, and if not, patching them is also easy. Sure there's a lot of glue code required, but that is a reality in every language.
dwc 8y ago
> There is a package for every possible problem you have just waiting to be used. Only if you work on the same kinds of things everyone else works on. There are certainly tons of jobs that qualify in that regard. For other kinds of work there aren't packages that cover needed functionality, because either there wouldn't be many consumers of a package or the functionality is actually new. This is where I've found myself over the last couple of decades and I like it better, personally.

by shiado 8y ago

nomy99 8y ago

"In the future programmers won't be replaced by robots, they will be replaced by import statements." I disagree. How is this different from someone 20 years ago saying programmers will be replaced by jar files.

andrewmcwatters 8y ago
Yeah, the reality is some of us got replaced by Adobe and Salesforce.
- nomy99 8y ago
  So you are saying you couldn't apply your skills as a java developer anymore because of salesforce?
ourmandave 8y ago
Even if it does come down to just import statements they'll still be plenty of jobs. Since the deploy tools are rewritten or replaced every couple months somebody has to maintain the build process.

bitL 8y ago

> highly generic, often looking to implement something completely off the shelf as far as problems go. There is serious work being undergone in automating this using advanced ML. In 5-10 years most of these problems will be LEGO-ized and humans won't be needed on that level. So your generic JavaScript developer used to glue these pieces will be gone.

woah 8y ago
That’s been 5-10 years out since the 50’s, right?
- bitL 8y ago
  Yeah, but this time we actually seem to have some half-functioning ML in form of Deep (Reinforcement) Learning, which we didn't have before. You can't expect all issues will be automated away, but more like a gradual process when more and more tasks will be, and companies competing with each other on who finds a new way to automate something, like we saw with any explosive R&D in the past.
nomy99 8y ago
why is it that in all advancement of machine learning and AI prophecies, the developer becomes obsolete. Remember, we are automating systems and technology to advance our species when facing tougher problems. The rise of AI and machine learning came out of the necessity of faster computers and a bigger connected community of humans and devices. Turnaround time for features and business value also is driving this innovation. As systems get more complicated, the roles of developers will change, not be obsolete. For a developer to cease to exist, humanity itself would have to change. When you imply technology being created and managed its own, the implications to society are huge. I might even argue that the species survival would even be at risk here. I think in the foreseeable future, developers would interface with ever more smart and complete features.
- bitL 8y ago
  I am working in that area myself, maybe I am just better informed and convinced by what I experimented with. Even Adobe is now doing LEGO-esque photo editing and looking for testers. When we get those things to production, there will be serious shift in basic-level developer demand; those will be likely out of luck soon. Most people would be able to assemble a simple app covering many of their needs just by dictating to their phones what would they expect to see and pre-baked LEGO blocks will be applied. Imagine fun with Minecraft but this time with blocks of properly encapsulated code, real-time using voice, touch and eye tracking.

DarkCrusader2 8y ago

Not to attack you personally, but it seems like you have never written software professionally. All the available packages you mention quickly become useless as soon as you have a use case that is not in the package's, often very short, README. More often than not, you need functionality which is at the intersection of what is provided by 2 or more packages with no easy means to make them work with one another nicely, so you basically have to write one for yourself. And when you remove all these useless packages, you get a set of useful packages which are not unique to javascript but can be found in any mature language.

peterbraden 8y ago
You did attack them personally. The JS module ecosystem is far ahead of most other languages for web stuff. Most of the time the modules are perfectly sufficient, and if not, patching them is also easy. Sure there's a lot of glue code required, but that is a reality in every language.

dwc 8y ago

> There is a package for every possible problem you have just waiting to be used. Only if you work on the same kinds of things everyone else works on. There are certainly tons of jobs that qualify in that regard. For other kinds of work there aren't packages that cover needed functionality, because either there wouldn't be many consumers of a package or the functionality is actually new. This is where I've found myself over the last couple of decades and I like it better, personally.