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> Wait a second and consider that maybe there is a reason why this incredibly large number of developers are using these tools. That perhaps they evaluated vari

> Wait a second and consider that maybe there is a reason why this incredibly large number of developers are using these tools. That perhaps they evaluated various different options and decided that what they are using is more suitable than make. Maybe you could find out. Here we have another fundemental "problem" between dev and ops. The inherent friction because of different areas of concern. Dev's want to build fast and create new features, but sadly (even with the whole devops notion) are usually not thinking about viability in production. Ops people need to keep thing stable, something which is sadly undervalued a lot of times in companies.

untog 8y ago
Not really? A lot of build tools are chosen specifically to make the build process more reliable and understandable. For example, build tools like Maven handle dependency management, which is hugely beneficial in ensuring your builds are consistent and work the same in different environments. Makefiles are shell scripts.
- mancerayder 8y ago
  Not taking sides here but you picked a bad example. Makefiles specifically handle dependency management, but designed from a compiled language perspective. Make sure you build this .so before you build this bin, or that this directory exists, and so forth.
  - untog 8y ago
    That's fair, but it still reinforces the point: Makefiles are great from a compiled language perspective. Other build tools are better from other perspectives. It isn't wrong to choose a tool depending on your needs!
- colanderman 8y ago
  Makefiles are definitely not shell scripts. Individual recipe lines are executed using Bash by default, but you can change this. (Heck you probably could even get away with Python if you really wanted.) The rest of Make (which is 95% of what's in a Makefile) is its own language, which is actually not too bad for what it's intended for (munging around filenames), and has the flavor of a functional language.
- mcguire 8y ago
  "Maven handle dependency management" https://maven.apache.org/pom.html#Dependency_Version_Requirement_Specification https://maven.apache.org/pom.html#Dependency_Version_Require... Don't forget to go the extra mile with your dependency versioning to ensure you actually get repeatable builds.
notyourday 8y ago
Put devs on 24x7 escalation above your level-1 ("Is it actually broken?") NOC. Developer attitude would change immediately.
- digi_owl 8y ago
  Sadly i have seen far too many devs go "you are holding it wrong"...
  - mcguire 8y ago
    "It works for me."
  - notyourday 8y ago
    "You are holding your paycheck wrong"

untog 8y ago

Not really? A lot of build tools are chosen specifically to make the build process more reliable and understandable. For example, build tools like Maven handle dependency management, which is hugely beneficial in ensuring your builds are consistent and work the same in different environments. Makefiles are shell scripts.

mancerayder 8y ago
Not taking sides here but you picked a bad example. Makefiles specifically handle dependency management, but designed from a compiled language perspective. Make sure you build this .so before you build this bin, or that this directory exists, and so forth.
- untog 8y ago
  That's fair, but it still reinforces the point: Makefiles are great from a compiled language perspective. Other build tools are better from other perspectives. It isn't wrong to choose a tool depending on your needs!
colanderman 8y ago
Makefiles are definitely not shell scripts. Individual recipe lines are executed using Bash by default, but you can change this. (Heck you probably could even get away with Python if you really wanted.) The rest of Make (which is 95% of what's in a Makefile) is its own language, which is actually not too bad for what it's intended for (munging around filenames), and has the flavor of a functional language.
mcguire 8y ago
"Maven handle dependency management" https://maven.apache.org/pom.html#Dependency_Version_Requirement_Specification https://maven.apache.org/pom.html#Dependency_Version_Require... Don't forget to go the extra mile with your dependency versioning to ensure you actually get repeatable builds.

notyourday 8y ago

Put devs on 24x7 escalation above your level-1 ("Is it actually broken?") NOC. Developer attitude would change immediately.

digi_owl 8y ago
Sadly i have seen far too many devs go "you are holding it wrong"...
- mcguire 8y ago
  "It works for me."
- notyourday 8y ago
  "You are holding your paycheck wrong"