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In this scenario you were asked one question, but answered another when saying "thank you for making it", because you didn't want to deal with the social fallou

by lovich 9y ago

In this scenario you were asked one question, but answered another when saying "thank you for making it", because you didn't want to deal with the social fallout of actually telling the truth to the original question. I don't see how that's not mental gymnastics to say it's not lieing, which seems like a big divide in this thread

nocman 9y ago
It's actually very simple, and not at all mental gymnastics. It's not a lie because I didn't say something that was not true. Again you are saying that me not answering a question is equivalent to me lying, and you are simply wrong about that. They are not the same thing.
- lovich 9y ago
  Talking to people is not computer code. In this admittedly contrived situation, they are looking for you to say it's good. You give an answer _to a different question_. Either people realize and you've violated the social expectation or they don't realize and you've misdirected them. Avoiding the question in a way that's misleading people has the same result as a lie even if not technically the same thing If you refused to answer the question in this statement that's not lieing. If you said "no, it wasn't good" that wouldn't be lieing. The entire camp of people in this thread with your viewpoint are acting like a stereotypical genie where as long as everything you say is technically accurate you have done nothing wrong even when you are will full disregarding the extra layers of meaning that are part of human to human conversation
  - nocman 9y ago
    "Talking to people is not computer code." irrelevant. I never said it was. Also, saying "thank you for making it" isn't answering a question at all, so it isn't "answering a different question". "The entire camp of people in this thread" with my viewpoint simply disagree with you. You attribute dishonesty to things we would say, when we know that saying those things would be honest. So you can keep reiterating the same viewpoint over and over again, and I'll keep disagreeing with it every time (regardless of whether I spend the time to reply again).
    - lovich 9y ago
      You didn't say that talking to people was like computer code, you are describing talking to people like it's computer code so it is relevant. >Also, saying "thank you for making it" isn't answering a question at all, so it isn't "answering a different question". Saying that you're not lieing because you are haven't said something that is false out of context, but is still misleading _on purpose_ is the most pedantic thing I have heard all year. And just don't reply if you are going to be done with a discussion, telling people you might not bother replying to them is condescending and uncivil for this board
      - nocman 8y ago
        > You didn't say that talking to people was like computer code, you are describing talking to people like it's computer code so it is relevant. That's your opinion, which I disagree with. So from my view it is still irrelevant. I'm willing to agree to disagree on that point. > And just don't reply if you are going to be done with a discussion, telling people you might not bother replying to them is condescending and uncivil for this board There was nothing uncivil, nor condescending about what I said. I just said I would continue to disagree even if I didn't continue the conversation. I think we've pretty much beaten this disagreement to death, and it's time for me to move on.
        learc83 8y ago
        >That's your opinion, which I disagree with. So from my view it is still irrelevant. It's not irrelevant just because you disagree with it. That's not what irrelevant means. It would be irrelevant if the truth or falsehood of the statement had no impact on the rest of the argument. >I think we've pretty much beaten this disagreement to death, and it's time for me to move on. Then just move on...stop trying to get the last word in. (I'm not the person you were replying).
    - dkersten 9y ago
      Dishonesty is about misleading somebody, regardless of what you say. You can say 100% truthful things and still mislead people, which is still dishonest. A common method of dishonesty is by omitting important things. We are saying that we feel that your response is sidestepping the question asked of you, which is dishonest by omission, because this omission misleads. Communication is about more than the words you say.

by lovich 9y ago

nocman 9y ago

It's actually very simple, and not at all mental gymnastics. It's not a lie because I didn't say something that was not true. Again you are saying that me not answering a question is equivalent to me lying, and you are simply wrong about that. They are not the same thing.

lovich 9y ago
Talking to people is not computer code. In this admittedly contrived situation, they are looking for you to say it's good. You give an answer _to a different question_. Either people realize and you've violated the social expectation or they don't realize and you've misdirected them. Avoiding the question in a way that's misleading people has the same result as a lie even if not technically the same thing If you refused to answer the question in this statement that's not lieing. If you said "no, it wasn't good" that wouldn't be lieing. The entire camp of people in this thread with your viewpoint are acting like a stereotypical genie where as long as everything you say is technically accurate you have done nothing wrong even when you are will full disregarding the extra layers of meaning that are part of human to human conversation
- nocman 9y ago
  "Talking to people is not computer code." irrelevant. I never said it was. Also, saying "thank you for making it" isn't answering a question at all, so it isn't "answering a different question". "The entire camp of people in this thread" with my viewpoint simply disagree with you. You attribute dishonesty to things we would say, when we know that saying those things would be honest. So you can keep reiterating the same viewpoint over and over again, and I'll keep disagreeing with it every time (regardless of whether I spend the time to reply again).
  - lovich 9y ago
    You didn't say that talking to people was like computer code, you are describing talking to people like it's computer code so it is relevant. >Also, saying "thank you for making it" isn't answering a question at all, so it isn't "answering a different question". Saying that you're not lieing because you are haven't said something that is false out of context, but is still misleading _on purpose_ is the most pedantic thing I have heard all year. And just don't reply if you are going to be done with a discussion, telling people you might not bother replying to them is condescending and uncivil for this board
    - nocman 8y ago
      > You didn't say that talking to people was like computer code, you are describing talking to people like it's computer code so it is relevant. That's your opinion, which I disagree with. So from my view it is still irrelevant. I'm willing to agree to disagree on that point. > And just don't reply if you are going to be done with a discussion, telling people you might not bother replying to them is condescending and uncivil for this board There was nothing uncivil, nor condescending about what I said. I just said I would continue to disagree even if I didn't continue the conversation. I think we've pretty much beaten this disagreement to death, and it's time for me to move on.
      - learc83 8y ago
        >That's your opinion, which I disagree with. So from my view it is still irrelevant. It's not irrelevant just because you disagree with it. That's not what irrelevant means. It would be irrelevant if the truth or falsehood of the statement had no impact on the rest of the argument. >I think we've pretty much beaten this disagreement to death, and it's time for me to move on. Then just move on...stop trying to get the last word in. (I'm not the person you were replying).
  - dkersten 9y ago
    Dishonesty is about misleading somebody, regardless of what you say. You can say 100% truthful things and still mislead people, which is still dishonest. A common method of dishonesty is by omitting important things. We are saying that we feel that your response is sidestepping the question asked of you, which is dishonest by omission, because this omission misleads. Communication is about more than the words you say.