7 ms·

>Marketing is not evil. It's how the world works. You need to market something to be able to sell it. Tracking of all kinds aren't inherently evil. If companie

>Marketing is not evil. It's how the world works. You need to market something to be able to sell it. Tracking of all kinds aren't inherently evil. If companies didn't abuse the various ways they tell us are "how the world works", then nobody would ever have needed tracking or ad blockers. Reality is that no matter how often marketing departments tell us that marketing is vital to the future of the species, people are generally running pretty short on goodwill in these areas. The responsible actors, if there are any, are swimming in a poisoned pond.

_jal 8y ago
Absolutely. Just to pile on a bit, folks who honestly believe in this line of thought should embrace that cliche about marketing being a conversation. Think about how you reacted to the last intrusive, nosey person you had to deal with. "No, I don't discuss my sex life or my wallet with someone I met in line at the coffee shop." I totally understand that metrics are needed to evaluate your plans. Problem is, there is a gradient of behavior your team as a whole gets up to, you don't like to talk about the things you do, and the far end of that gradient is some really smelly, nasty behavior. So in turn, my problem is I'd be fine with a certain degree of tracking, but I don't know exactly where the bad behavior starts. Once data leaks, it doesn't go away. So all of my decent moves involve overshooting and suppressing tracking I'd be OK with, just to be sure. I don't know a way out of this trap, sorry. Getting back to marketing-as-conversation, remember the rebellion over ad-popups? Yeah, that was a big moment of going so far the browser makers slapped you down. We heard all the same wailing, and yet somehow civilization survived. I'm pretty sure you can survive me refusing to allow you canvas-fingerprinting, or unlimited rights to run JS on my machine. Or even Urchin-tag-strippers.
- true_religion 8y ago
  Rather than popups or popunders, ad companies just open a new tab for their ad. It's the same thing and pays the same. Civilization survived because nothing changed.
  - michaelmrose 8y ago
    I'm not sure we are browsing the same web. On firefox with ublock I only see pages open in response to explicit actions like clicking on a link. Popups of the style seen in the 90s just aren't a thing anymore for me.
- annabellish 8y ago
  >I don't know a way out of this trap, sorry. I don't think there is one, personally. All the goodwill is gone, and that's extremely difficult to get back. I think what's important at this stage is that we pay attention to what has happened, with users completely losing trust and faith in advertising, marketing, tracking - heck, even _diagnostic analytics_ - and recognise what caused this. Then, maybe, we can try and avoid it in future. Alternatively: Move everything to locked down mobile platforms and keep driving straight towards the latest stage capitalism we can see, and just keep finding new ways to keep users locked in to a platform they despise more and more until something _snaps_ - but that'd be tomorrow's problem, right?
- _o_ 8y ago
  This one strips more tracking tags and you can use your own list in configuration: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/neat-url/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/neat-url/ "utm_source, utm_medium, utm_term, utm_content, utm_campaign, utm_reader, utm_place, utm_userid, utm_cid, utm_name, utm_pubreferrer, utm_swu, utm_viz_id, ga_source, ga_medium, ga_term, ga_content, ga_campaign, ga_place, yclid, _openstat, fb_action_ids, fb_action_types, fb_ref, fb_source, action_object_map, action_type_map, action_ref_map, gs_l, pd_rd_r@amazon., pd_rd_w@amazon., pd_rd_wg@amazon., _encoding@amazon., psc@amazon., ved@google., ei@google., sei@google., gws_rd@google., cvid@bing.com, form@bing.com, sk@bing.com, sp@bing.com, sc@bing.com, qs@bing.com, pq@bing.com, feature@youtube.com, gclid@youtube.com, kw@youtube.com, $/ref@amazon., _hsenc, mkt_tok, hmb_campaign, hmb_medium, hmb_source" Regarding overshooting, try with this: https://adnauseam.io/ https://adnauseam.io/ "As online advertising becomes ever more ubiquitous and unsanctioned, AdNauseam works to complete the cycle by automating Ad clicks universally and blindly on behalf of its users. Built atop uBlock Origin, AdNauseam quietly clicks on every blocked ad, registering a visit on ad networks' databases. As the collected data gathered shows an omnivorous click-stream, user tracking, targeting and surveillance become futile."
  - jagthebeetle 8y ago
    Missing, among possibly others, coremetrics tracking tags (cm_mmc)
    - redbluething 8y ago
      Also gclid and dclid. Not that I think this is a great idea. :P
      - underlines 8y ago
        also missing google analytics cross-domain parameter _ga=xxxx
emgee_1 8y ago
Marketing is evil. It is lying on a massive scale. If I want something I’ m go to look for it not the other way around. If you track me I will dispise you and will root you out. Sort of /r
- gk1 8y ago
  > If I want something I’ m go to look for it not the other way around. And how are you going to find it? And how will you know that it's the right solution to what you need? And how will you compare it against other alternatives? Marketing is about all these things--not just advertising.
  - psetq 8y ago
    All three of your questions can be answered by either using my own judgement, or reaching out to people more familiar with what I'm trying to accomplish with the product/purchase. I'd trust a mechanic's opinion on what tools to buy much more than a tool company marketing department. I'd expect this type of thinking (being sceptical of "marketing") is pretty much common sense these days.
    - gowld 8y ago
      How will that mechanic learn about the options?
      - psetq 8y ago
        Can you really not imagine any way to learn about things existing without some marketing department telling you so, or do you just want me to say that not all marketing is bad or unnecessary, which I have no problem doing.
        ksk 8y ago
        Well, the only entity who knows about a product's existence is the product creator. Without them marketing it (organic or otherwise) nobody else would ever know.
grey_earthling 8y ago
I'm not the one selling something. Maybe you need marketing, but I don't. On the other hand, if I'm actively trying to buy something, then I'll appreciate you telling me what you're selling. If I'm in a bike shop, it's because I want to buy a bike. The shop doesn't need to know where I was earlier. If you as a seller want to know more about your (potential) customers, maybe… ask them?

_jal 8y ago

Absolutely. Just to pile on a bit, folks who honestly believe in this line of thought should embrace that cliche about marketing being a conversation. Think about how you reacted to the last intrusive, nosey person you had to deal with. "No, I don't discuss my sex life or my wallet with someone I met in line at the coffee shop." I totally understand that metrics are needed to evaluate your plans. Problem is, there is a gradient of behavior your team as a whole gets up to, you don't like to talk about the things you do, and the far end of that gradient is some really smelly, nasty behavior. So in turn, my problem is I'd be fine with a certain degree of tracking, but I don't know exactly where the bad behavior starts. Once data leaks, it doesn't go away. So all of my decent moves involve overshooting and suppressing tracking I'd be OK with, just to be sure. I don't know a way out of this trap, sorry. Getting back to marketing-as-conversation, remember the rebellion over ad-popups? Yeah, that was a big moment of going so far the browser makers slapped you down. We heard all the same wailing, and yet somehow civilization survived. I'm pretty sure you can survive me refusing to allow you canvas-fingerprinting, or unlimited rights to run JS on my machine. Or even Urchin-tag-strippers.

true_religion 8y ago
Rather than popups or popunders, ad companies just open a new tab for their ad. It's the same thing and pays the same. Civilization survived because nothing changed.
- michaelmrose 8y ago
  I'm not sure we are browsing the same web. On firefox with ublock I only see pages open in response to explicit actions like clicking on a link. Popups of the style seen in the 90s just aren't a thing anymore for me.
annabellish 8y ago
>I don't know a way out of this trap, sorry. I don't think there is one, personally. All the goodwill is gone, and that's extremely difficult to get back. I think what's important at this stage is that we pay attention to what has happened, with users completely losing trust and faith in advertising, marketing, tracking - heck, even _diagnostic analytics_ - and recognise what caused this. Then, maybe, we can try and avoid it in future. Alternatively: Move everything to locked down mobile platforms and keep driving straight towards the latest stage capitalism we can see, and just keep finding new ways to keep users locked in to a platform they despise more and more until something _snaps_ - but that'd be tomorrow's problem, right?
_o_ 8y ago
This one strips more tracking tags and you can use your own list in configuration: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/neat-url/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/neat-url/ "utm_source, utm_medium, utm_term, utm_content, utm_campaign, utm_reader, utm_place, utm_userid, utm_cid, utm_name, utm_pubreferrer, utm_swu, utm_viz_id, ga_source, ga_medium, ga_term, ga_content, ga_campaign, ga_place, yclid, _openstat, fb_action_ids, fb_action_types, fb_ref, fb_source, action_object_map, action_type_map, action_ref_map, gs_l, pd_rd_r@amazon., pd_rd_w@amazon., pd_rd_wg@amazon., _encoding@amazon., psc@amazon., ved@google., ei@google., sei@google., gws_rd@google., cvid@bing.com, form@bing.com, sk@bing.com, sp@bing.com, sc@bing.com, qs@bing.com, pq@bing.com, feature@youtube.com, gclid@youtube.com, kw@youtube.com, $/ref@amazon., _hsenc, mkt_tok, hmb_campaign, hmb_medium, hmb_source" Regarding overshooting, try with this: https://adnauseam.io/ https://adnauseam.io/ "As online advertising becomes ever more ubiquitous and unsanctioned, AdNauseam works to complete the cycle by automating Ad clicks universally and blindly on behalf of its users. Built atop uBlock Origin, AdNauseam quietly clicks on every blocked ad, registering a visit on ad networks' databases. As the collected data gathered shows an omnivorous click-stream, user tracking, targeting and surveillance become futile."
- jagthebeetle 8y ago
  Missing, among possibly others, coremetrics tracking tags (cm_mmc)
  - redbluething 8y ago
    Also gclid and dclid. Not that I think this is a great idea. :P
    - underlines 8y ago
      also missing google analytics cross-domain parameter _ga=xxxx

emgee_1 8y ago

Marketing is evil. It is lying on a massive scale. If I want something I’ m go to look for it not the other way around. If you track me I will dispise you and will root you out. Sort of /r

gk1 8y ago
> If I want something I’ m go to look for it not the other way around. And how are you going to find it? And how will you know that it's the right solution to what you need? And how will you compare it against other alternatives? Marketing is about all these things--not just advertising.
- psetq 8y ago
  All three of your questions can be answered by either using my own judgement, or reaching out to people more familiar with what I'm trying to accomplish with the product/purchase. I'd trust a mechanic's opinion on what tools to buy much more than a tool company marketing department. I'd expect this type of thinking (being sceptical of "marketing") is pretty much common sense these days.
  - gowld 8y ago
    How will that mechanic learn about the options?
    - psetq 8y ago
      Can you really not imagine any way to learn about things existing without some marketing department telling you so, or do you just want me to say that not all marketing is bad or unnecessary, which I have no problem doing.
      - ksk 8y ago
        Well, the only entity who knows about a product's existence is the product creator. Without them marketing it (organic or otherwise) nobody else would ever know.

grey_earthling 8y ago

I'm not the one selling something. Maybe you need marketing, but I don't. On the other hand, if I'm actively trying to buy something, then I'll appreciate you telling me what you're selling. If I'm in a bike shop, it's because I want to buy a bike. The shop doesn't need to know where I was earlier. If you as a seller want to know more about your (potential) customers, maybe… ask them?