5 ms·

(1) Networking and building a reputation for yourself will always have value. (2) Most of the things that he's listed are merits. Being involved in his commun

• aje403 8y ago
  Yeah but can we disregard common sense and still call it a good ol boys club for the sake of the pitchforks? I think if we turn it slightly differently we can definitely slap a white male oppression on it
• pjc50 8y ago
  In re (3), the post specifically mentions the Masons, which traditionally is extremely exclusive, men-only, excludes Catholics, etc. They've opened up slightly in response to pressure, and there are some female freemasons, but it's still pretty exclusive.
  • rando444 8y ago
    The masons was an anecdote specific to that commenter, my point was that there are many different types of groups that serve the same purpose.
    • TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      At the very least, I think pjc50's observation highlights that there is a certain inertia in some industries that perpetuates a bias toward one or the other gender. Edit: changed a couple of words to make my point clearer.
      • rando444 8y ago
        Well if we're doing anecdotes, I work for the second largest IT firm in my country, and the management is largely made up of women, and I don't believe any of them to be freemasons. Perhaps this observation has more to do with location and culture than it does industry.
        • TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
          Sorry, my point wasn't really about Freemasons in particular, but I'm too tired now to try to clarify.
        • drewmol 8y ago
          Do you know any of them to be Catholic?
  • drewmol 8y ago
    >exclude Catholics, >but it's still pretty exclusive. Catholics are a juggernaut, the global leader in that market. I'd say it was required strategy in order to avoid a squeeze-out. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeeze-out https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeeze-out
  • mrbill 8y ago
    We have plenty of Catholic members. The Masons didn't exclude Catholics, the Pope banned membership in Masonry by Catholics because he considered the organization a threat to his authority. That ban is pretty much ignored nowdays. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry The Knights of Columbus was formed as a "Catholic equivalent of Freemasonry", basically.
  • viridian 8y ago
    Order of the Eastern star.
• watwut 8y ago
  Speaking about meritocracy. 1.) We laughed, shook hands and they headhunted me away The headhunt started on very little information - basically on how he laugh and shakes of hand. Had likely proved himself later, but it was all was on instant first impression - where biases matter most. 2.) Freemason How is that related to merit in tech? Yes, similar "we have thing in common" bias happen everywhere (and may advantage women in other context), but is not merit. Had he be a women that got hired on sewing hobby or membership in feminist organization, it would still not be meritocracy. 3.) making friends, and being involved in online and offline communities are not things limited to white males Absolutely, in other context it would advantage women or whoever. However, they advantage people with same hobbies and interests as whoever is already in. They are not merit in any meaningful sense of word, just like call of duty is not merit or world of warcraft is not merit. I am not saying that any of it is some horrible act or happens only in tech. It is not. Neither is it merit no matter how much tech people like to pretend real world is meritocracy.
  • aepiepaey 8y ago
    > The headhunt started on very little information - basically on how he laugh and shakes of hand. Had likely proved himself later, but it was all was on instant first impression - where biases matter most. No, they already had a previous relation: "[...] from the Oklahoma City-based ISP I'd started my career at and left in '96" (emphasis added). Given mrbill had worked for/with them (three years prior), they definitely had much more information than just a first impression.
  • hueving 8y ago
    >The headhunt started on very little information - At least read the comment before trying to troll. They headhunted him because he had already worked for them. It's hard to get more information than that.
  • mkirklions 8y ago
    >no matter how much tech people like to pretend real world is meritocracy. We are talking highly technical people, what merit did OP not have? It sounded like OP had 2 decades of experience in his niche. I really dont care if I hire men, women, or any race. I really dont. As long as you show up and get the job done, wonderful. Many people disappoint and my current contractor is a white male, and I dont care.
• gjulianm 8y ago
  You are completely missing the parent's point. They say that this is one of the examples where hires are not performed 100% based on merit but that existing networks and references are an important aspect, without denying that this person did not have the merits to be hired. Also, yes, good job histories, friends and communities are not limited to white males. But they have a strong component of inertia: if those communities, jobs and friend networks have something in common (e.g., gender) it is only normal that they attract persons with that trait and therefore the bias persists. Changing that is difficult and takes time and effort.
  • mistermann 8y ago
    I'm curious if you believe this comment belongs to both the Freemason association and "mr_bill on efnet #unix IRC in the 90s", or only one of them? I'd 100% agree on the former, but not the latter.