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You ever politely laugh at something you really didn't find all that funny? Human social interactions are built on small deceptions. Some amount of dishonesty

You ever politely laugh at something you really didn't find all that funny? Human social interactions are built on small deceptions. Some amount of dishonesty is required if you want to avoid being an awkward social pariah. If you are incapable of any social dishonesty whatsoever, you will quickly be labeled an inappropriate, self righteous asshole. Of course there is a limit to those social norms. Dishonesty that exceeds those limits moves from being polite to what most of us consider lying.

AmericanChopper 8y ago
I’m very worried that so many people here seem to think it’s impossible to be empathetic with people without being dishonest.
- learc83 8y ago
  Surely you've had this conversation numerous times throughout your life with people who hold this opinion. You clearly disagree with it, but it's common enough that you shouldn't be surprised by it. Philosophers have debated this question for millennia--it's nothing new. >empathetic with people without being dishonest Empathy and honesty are orthogonal.
- alchemism 8y ago
  “Speak the truth, but ride a fast horse.” A proverb on the subject.
nocman 8y ago
"Some amount of dishonesty is required if you want to avoid being an awkward social pariah." Actually that's not true. It is possible to be completely sincere, yet tactful. And you can do it in a way that doesn't come off as self-righteous. I will grant you that it is definitely more rare than it should be, but that doesn't make the opposite a requirement.
- learc83 8y ago
  >Actually that's not true. It is possible to be completely sincere, yet tactful I completely and utterly disagree with this. There are too many social interactions centered around a shared expectation of dishonesty. If your partner's grandmother asks you how the food was, if you answer with anything less than "great", regardless of how tactfully you do so, there will be negative social consequences. Even in the rare case that the grandmother wants your honest opinion, the rest of the family have expectations about how you are supposed to respond.
  - nocman 8y ago
    Avoiding answering a question directly does not make you dishonest. If my wife's grandmother had asked me how the food was (assuming the food was awful), I might say "it was very much appreciated" -- and I could say that with 100% honesty, because she would have put a lot of effort into it, and even if she failed, I appreciate that she tried. Or let's say she didn't try very hard (which would have been unlikely for either of my wife's grandmothers), I could answer with "thank you for making it", or something else like that, and my response could be 100% sincere. I think the fundamental argument being had in this portion of this thread is that if you don't say everything you think about something then you are being dishonest. I and many others in the thread totally disagree with that assesment. Your statements can be 100% truthful, and yet not reveal all of your thoughts about a subject or situation. Having a filter doesn't make you dishonest. Some of your thoughts are unkind, some can be even downright evil at times. The fact that you don't reveal these things is often a sign of self control. Words have power, and they affect others around you. There's a reason everyone can't hear every thought you have. Again, the fact that I don't reveal everything I think does not make me dishonest. If that's your definition of "honesty", then I'm glad I don't live in a world where everyone is "honest" -- it would be a miserable experience.
    - learc83 8y ago
      >Your statements can be 100% truthful, and yet not reveal all of your thoughts about a subject or situation. Having a filter doesn't make you dishonest. Some of your thoughts are unkind, some can be even downright evil at times. The fact that you don't reveal these things is often a sign of self control. Words have power, and they affect others around you. There's a reason everyone can't hear every thought you have. Absolutely 100% true. >I could answer with "thank you for making it" You are carefully crafting a response to the question to make everyone believe that you liked the food without directly stating that. I believe this is completely morally equivalent to leading everyone to believe you liked the food by directly stating it. I believe that neither one of these things is immoral in any way in the particular case. Let's say she doesn't accept your dancing around the question? Are you going to keep crafting answers that are technically correct in attempt to make everyone think you liked the food? I don't think it's wrong if you do so, but I do think that the effect is completely the same as if you'd just said it was great.
salvar 8y ago
This seems like pedantic wordplay to me. Laughing at something I didn't really find funny is not even in the same league as lying about having worked somewhere where you didn't, and providing a false recommendation in order to get a job.
eeZah7Ux 8y ago
> Some amount of dishonesty is required if you want to avoid being an awkward social pariah. Not at all. When people ask "did you like the food?" they want to receive honest feedback, including a perfectly acceptable "actually not that much", at least where I live. You can teach people that you will refuse to manipulate them and lie to them - and that this is a way to respect their dignity. It's also unpolite to ask direct, potentially embarrassing questions that put people on the spot. There is nothing wrong in asking people not to do that. People can find your (polite) honesty refreshing and warm.
- learc83 8y ago
  > at least where I live That is completely cultural. Many culture have different expectations. >People can find your (polite) honesty refreshing and warm. In many cultures, including large parts of the US, politeness is often valued more than honesty--polite lies in such cases are a required a social convention. In any culture there will be consequences to ignoring social convention. Perhaps you are willing to accept those consequences. Some people have the social capital to flaunt convention, and some people choose to live with the stigma, but there is a stigma. For example, if you were to answer "actually not that much" at my grandmother's house, you'd at a very minimum get a sideways glance from most people at the table.

AmericanChopper 8y ago

I’m very worried that so many people here seem to think it’s impossible to be empathetic with people without being dishonest.

learc83 8y ago
Surely you've had this conversation numerous times throughout your life with people who hold this opinion. You clearly disagree with it, but it's common enough that you shouldn't be surprised by it. Philosophers have debated this question for millennia--it's nothing new. >empathetic with people without being dishonest Empathy and honesty are orthogonal.
alchemism 8y ago
“Speak the truth, but ride a fast horse.” A proverb on the subject.

nocman 8y ago

"Some amount of dishonesty is required if you want to avoid being an awkward social pariah." Actually that's not true. It is possible to be completely sincere, yet tactful. And you can do it in a way that doesn't come off as self-righteous. I will grant you that it is definitely more rare than it should be, but that doesn't make the opposite a requirement.

learc83 8y ago
>Actually that's not true. It is possible to be completely sincere, yet tactful I completely and utterly disagree with this. There are too many social interactions centered around a shared expectation of dishonesty. If your partner's grandmother asks you how the food was, if you answer with anything less than "great", regardless of how tactfully you do so, there will be negative social consequences. Even in the rare case that the grandmother wants your honest opinion, the rest of the family have expectations about how you are supposed to respond.
- nocman 8y ago
  Avoiding answering a question directly does not make you dishonest. If my wife's grandmother had asked me how the food was (assuming the food was awful), I might say "it was very much appreciated" -- and I could say that with 100% honesty, because she would have put a lot of effort into it, and even if she failed, I appreciate that she tried. Or let's say she didn't try very hard (which would have been unlikely for either of my wife's grandmothers), I could answer with "thank you for making it", or something else like that, and my response could be 100% sincere. I think the fundamental argument being had in this portion of this thread is that if you don't say everything you think about something then you are being dishonest. I and many others in the thread totally disagree with that assesment. Your statements can be 100% truthful, and yet not reveal all of your thoughts about a subject or situation. Having a filter doesn't make you dishonest. Some of your thoughts are unkind, some can be even downright evil at times. The fact that you don't reveal these things is often a sign of self control. Words have power, and they affect others around you. There's a reason everyone can't hear every thought you have. Again, the fact that I don't reveal everything I think does not make me dishonest. If that's your definition of "honesty", then I'm glad I don't live in a world where everyone is "honest" -- it would be a miserable experience.
  - learc83 8y ago
    >Your statements can be 100% truthful, and yet not reveal all of your thoughts about a subject or situation. Having a filter doesn't make you dishonest. Some of your thoughts are unkind, some can be even downright evil at times. The fact that you don't reveal these things is often a sign of self control. Words have power, and they affect others around you. There's a reason everyone can't hear every thought you have. Absolutely 100% true. >I could answer with "thank you for making it" You are carefully crafting a response to the question to make everyone believe that you liked the food without directly stating that. I believe this is completely morally equivalent to leading everyone to believe you liked the food by directly stating it. I believe that neither one of these things is immoral in any way in the particular case. Let's say she doesn't accept your dancing around the question? Are you going to keep crafting answers that are technically correct in attempt to make everyone think you liked the food? I don't think it's wrong if you do so, but I do think that the effect is completely the same as if you'd just said it was great.

salvar 8y ago

This seems like pedantic wordplay to me. Laughing at something I didn't really find funny is not even in the same league as lying about having worked somewhere where you didn't, and providing a false recommendation in order to get a job.

eeZah7Ux 8y ago

> Some amount of dishonesty is required if you want to avoid being an awkward social pariah. Not at all. When people ask "did you like the food?" they want to receive honest feedback, including a perfectly acceptable "actually not that much", at least where I live. You can teach people that you will refuse to manipulate them and lie to them - and that this is a way to respect their dignity. It's also unpolite to ask direct, potentially embarrassing questions that put people on the spot. There is nothing wrong in asking people not to do that. People can find your (polite) honesty refreshing and warm.

learc83 8y ago
> at least where I live That is completely cultural. Many culture have different expectations. >People can find your (polite) honesty refreshing and warm. In many cultures, including large parts of the US, politeness is often valued more than honesty--polite lies in such cases are a required a social convention. In any culture there will be consequences to ignoring social convention. Perhaps you are willing to accept those consequences. Some people have the social capital to flaunt convention, and some people choose to live with the stigma, but there is a stigma. For example, if you were to answer "actually not that much" at my grandmother's house, you'd at a very minimum get a sideways glance from most people at the table.