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Well they spent a ton of their time cramming flashcards of myriad regions and sub-regions and testing the wines, were then largely unable to identify which regi

Well they spent a ton of their time cramming flashcards of myriad regions and sub-regions and testing the wines, were then largely unable to identify which regions the wine came from, and a bunch of them still passed (I realize the test depicted was a practice but nowhere is this skill convincingly demonstrated by anyone). And the things they say about "notes of dead red rose petals" are taken to be mostly creative liberty and highly subjective so doing that well is more of being a showman than a technical expert. In general the type of people involved and their attitudes gave the impression that they just think it's cool to be "wine guys." In my opinion it didn't paint a picture of substance or rigor. Not saying that the entire wine industry is devoid of that, but this particular view into it validated some of the criticisms in my mind. Edit: one other thing I recall is that the results of the taste test portion of the actual exam are never released to anybody, which doesn't inspire much confidence.

cycrutchfield 8y ago
If you're open to trying new experiences, go to a group blind wine tasting event with actual trained sommeliers (you can find such events on meetup or elsewhere). It's a very interesting learning experience and it teaches you a little bit about how trained professionals methodically determine by taste, smell, and sight how to identify what a wine is. Now, they are very unlikely to be perfect, given that our palates are very unreliable and noisy sensors, and a given bottle of wine is itself a very noisy expression of the grapes it was made from. But there is a process to it, and it's not just a made-up pseudoscience.
- fenomas 8y ago
  > and it's not just a made-up pseudoscience. Meaning no offense, do you know of any evidence for that? Every time I've ever read about wine-tasting getting examined (i.e. by an academic study), the results invariably turn out to be that people can't distinguish what they think they can. If there's something to wine tasting, shouldn't one expect there to be studies of the "sommeliers were able to consistently distinguish X from Y" variety, for some X and Y?
  - cycrutchfield 8y ago
    If you have a link to such an academic study then we can discuss it in more detail. But sommeliers can absolutely taste a wine and produce fairly reliable estimates of country, region, appellation, variety, etc. That's essentially what they are trained to do, their exam is literally that.
    - fenomas 8y ago
      > But sommeliers can absolutely taste a wine and produce fairly reliable estimates of country, region, appellation, variety, etc. This is what I'm asking if there's any firm evidence of. Do you know of any? > That's essentially what they are trained to do, their exam is literally that. One can equivalently say that healing the body is what acupuncturists do, and what their exams cover. That's all well and good, but if they can actually do it one should expect there to be research to that effect, right?
      - cycrutchfield 8y ago
        >This is what I'm asking if there's any firm evidence of. Do you know of any? Yes, it's simply the sommelier examinations that they must pass in order to become a sommelier.
        fenomas 8y ago
        Are the relevant details of those examinations public? What questions are asked, how they're graded, pass/fail rates, etc.?
        cycrutchfield 8y ago
        I'm not sure, but my brother in law is somewhere along the progression of the master of wine exams and they do tell you how many of the wines you classified correctly and how many you did incorrectly. Obviously, if you are no better than random then you are not going to pass the test. He generally gets most of the wines right on the exams.
slyrus 8y ago
The showmanship is actually a critical component. In addition to the knowledge, and the ability to taste, service is (talking to the customer, understanding what they might like, opening the bottle, pouring (and washing) the glasses, are all key skills upon which sommeliers are measured. Clearly there's an element of showmanship (I don't mean this to be derogatory) involved in service.
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  Given the markups, sommeliers are used car salespeople of the wine world. I go for what I like. Ive had some $40 bottles that tasted like musty vinegar, and $7 wines that I bought a crate of. I dont need someone flashy doing what amounts to tricks to try to sell me 55% markup instead of the 30% markup.
  - cycrutchfield 8y ago
    More power to you, but a sommelier is not meant to upsell you on a more expensive bottle. Their service is meant to assist you in finding a wine that you would like (by itself or paired with a meal).
    - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
      Who pays the sommelier? I'm not paying them directly. The establishment is. Its the same analogy whom HR works for. Cause they sure don't represent my interests.
      - cycrutchfield 8y ago
        Who pays your waiter? Do you think your waiter is secretly conspiring to push you to order the most expensive entree? If you're going to call a sommelier a used car salesman, why stop there with the hyperbole?
        crankylinuxuser 8y ago

cycrutchfield 8y ago

If you're open to trying new experiences, go to a group blind wine tasting event with actual trained sommeliers (you can find such events on meetup or elsewhere). It's a very interesting learning experience and it teaches you a little bit about how trained professionals methodically determine by taste, smell, and sight how to identify what a wine is. Now, they are very unlikely to be perfect, given that our palates are very unreliable and noisy sensors, and a given bottle of wine is itself a very noisy expression of the grapes it was made from. But there is a process to it, and it's not just a made-up pseudoscience.

fenomas 8y ago
> and it's not just a made-up pseudoscience. Meaning no offense, do you know of any evidence for that? Every time I've ever read about wine-tasting getting examined (i.e. by an academic study), the results invariably turn out to be that people can't distinguish what they think they can. If there's something to wine tasting, shouldn't one expect there to be studies of the "sommeliers were able to consistently distinguish X from Y" variety, for some X and Y?
- cycrutchfield 8y ago
  If you have a link to such an academic study then we can discuss it in more detail. But sommeliers can absolutely taste a wine and produce fairly reliable estimates of country, region, appellation, variety, etc. That's essentially what they are trained to do, their exam is literally that.
  - fenomas 8y ago
    > But sommeliers can absolutely taste a wine and produce fairly reliable estimates of country, region, appellation, variety, etc. This is what I'm asking if there's any firm evidence of. Do you know of any? > That's essentially what they are trained to do, their exam is literally that. One can equivalently say that healing the body is what acupuncturists do, and what their exams cover. That's all well and good, but if they can actually do it one should expect there to be research to that effect, right?
    - cycrutchfield 8y ago
      >This is what I'm asking if there's any firm evidence of. Do you know of any? Yes, it's simply the sommelier examinations that they must pass in order to become a sommelier.
      - fenomas 8y ago
        Are the relevant details of those examinations public? What questions are asked, how they're graded, pass/fail rates, etc.?
        cycrutchfield 8y ago
        I'm not sure, but my brother in law is somewhere along the progression of the master of wine exams and they do tell you how many of the wines you classified correctly and how many you did incorrectly. Obviously, if you are no better than random then you are not going to pass the test. He generally gets most of the wines right on the exams.

slyrus 8y ago

The showmanship is actually a critical component. In addition to the knowledge, and the ability to taste, service is (talking to the customer, understanding what they might like, opening the bottle, pouring (and washing) the glasses, are all key skills upon which sommeliers are measured. Clearly there's an element of showmanship (I don't mean this to be derogatory) involved in service.

crankylinuxuser 8y ago
Given the markups, sommeliers are used car salespeople of the wine world. I go for what I like. Ive had some $40 bottles that tasted like musty vinegar, and $7 wines that I bought a crate of. I dont need someone flashy doing what amounts to tricks to try to sell me 55% markup instead of the 30% markup.
- cycrutchfield 8y ago
  More power to you, but a sommelier is not meant to upsell you on a more expensive bottle. Their service is meant to assist you in finding a wine that you would like (by itself or paired with a meal).
  - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
    Who pays the sommelier? I'm not paying them directly. The establishment is. Its the same analogy whom HR works for. Cause they sure don't represent my interests.
    - cycrutchfield 8y ago
      Who pays your waiter? Do you think your waiter is secretly conspiring to push you to order the most expensive entree? If you're going to call a sommelier a used car salesman, why stop there with the hyperbole?
      - crankylinuxuser 8y ago