4 ms·

I agree with all of this, and would only add that it seems like the market has already handled this strange circumstance. I enjoy great wine and it seldom cost

I agree with all of this, and would only add that it seems like the market has already handled this strange circumstance. I enjoy great wine and it seldom costs more than $8 a bottle. Some people really want to buy expensive things for the sake of luxury alone, and since wine is so easy to make (and apparently to project your tastes onto) we have amazing choices at nearly all price points. I'm not just being blue collar, either --- I'll readily admit that very expensive whiskey tastes VERY different from cheap whiskey, and much better too. There's no such thing as a $8 bottle of whiskey that tastes just as good as $90 bottle, but that's exactly how wine works. And, I suspect it's exactly why there's such price variation too. (I mean variation in the sense that a cheap bottle is as high quality as an expensive bottle. For whiskey, a cheap bottle is low quality, and an expensive bottle can be high quality.)

groby_b 8y ago
There is, however, a $15 bottle of Whiskey that beats Pappy every single time. (Well, used to be. They're not selling it any more.) And there are $80 bottles of wine that can't be approached by any of the $8 bottles. The thing is, both businesses are about both very subjective taste, and about marketing. You'll need to find what works for you, and roll with that. In both areas, spending more money makes it more likely you avoid the absolute disasters, but it doesn't guarantee you get something more than mediocre.
- andperseand 8y ago
  What is this $15 bottle of whiskey? I'd love to know what cheap bourbons are good.
  - dhimes 8y ago
    Larceny is a little more but very nice; Buffalo Trace a bit more still but delicious. Disclaimer: I'm new to bourbon.
    - sulam 8y ago
      I don’t know how affordable it is but I’ll drink Whistlepig anytime I see it.
    - andperseand 8y ago
      Of the very few bourbons I've bought, Buffalo Trace and Wild Turkey 101 have been excellent value to me. I keep hearing Rittenhouse Rye as well, so that might be my next one to try...
      - thr0w__4w4y 8y ago
        Rittenhouse was a delightful find for me a few years ago. A friend and I ordered Manhattans, he asked for his to be made with Rittenhouse. Funny thing is, it's the only bourbon or rye that I drink straight... it is smooth and delicious. The people here who've mentioned Rittenhouse are doing you the same favor that my buddy did a few years ago. And it's very affordable, usually $22-$25 a bottle. As many have said, although taste is a very subjective thing, cost and enjoyment aren't always correlated...
  - groby_b 8y ago
    I must shamefully admit: I don't recall the name. I have to go back to my tasting notes. This is based on memories from a few years ago. I just remember being thunderstruck by the fact that something so cheap was (for my taste) better than Van Winkle. (Which I considered in general overpriced, but still pretty damn good.)
- Semaphor 8y ago
  > In both areas, spending more money makes it more likely you avoid the absolute disasters, but it doesn't guarantee you get something more than mediocre. I agree very much. With whiskey I can generally say, I like the more expensive ones (to a limit) better, but then I also like the cheap 10yo (~$35) Laphroaig better than their more expensive 15yo (~$118) one.
bgribble 8y ago
> I enjoy great wine and it seldom costs more than $8 a bottle. You can definitely get really good wine cheap. But! Sometimes it's worth it to bump up. I drink a lot of whites these days because my wife can't tolerate red. I find that there is a sweet spot at about $25 (NYC retail prices) for whites that are noticeably better than cheaper ones -- French whites like Sancerre, decent Chablis, the less fancy Bourgognes; what I think of as new-style California Chardonnays (not oaky, more like French Chards). Then there's another sweet spot for whites at about $40, which includes some of my favorite bottles ever, which can change your idea about what good wine can taste like, if you don't usually "go there" pricewise.. I'll call out specifically the Alma Fria and Division Chardonnays, both from California, and in general a $40 bottle of Bourgogne will be very special. I also love natural (spontaneously fermented) wines as discussed in the article, but that's a whole different drinking experience, more like kombucha in a lot of ways than conventional wine.
- peterwwillis 8y ago
  I've hunted for a Sancerre, Vouvray, or Samur that compares to the 5 euro bottles I found in the bargain bin of a Carrefour in central France, to no avail. I've also never found Israeli or Greek wines here (the Greek wines can be so-so, but Israeli wine is amazing) and the Spanish choices over here are often disappointing. Trying to find any real sake is even more difficult. However, I think that if you bargain hunt and don't go for "favorite bottles" you should never have to spend more than $25 for a really good wine. If you divorce yourself from reviews and labels, and pick the wine solely based on region, varietal, grower/producer, and year, there are great wines all over the place, and you end up finding new things you never would have tried before.
cschmidt 8y ago
Perhaps you like white wine? I can't imagine an $8 red that was very good. If so, please let me know what it is. Price certainly varies with variety. A Pinot might be $20-40 while a cab would be more like $40-80 for the same quality.
- poulsbohemian 8y ago
  I live in Washington's wine country. There are lots of good bottles sub-$20, especially if you join a wine club and find case discounts. Here, there are plenty of > $50 bottles, often priced that way as positioning to the buyers they want to attract far more than as an actual measure of quality. For small time producers, there's a very real need for a premium price because when you are only bottling 5000-10,000 bottles, you gotta at least break even on them.
- jknightco 8y ago
  Here in Spain there are lots of fantastic wines around 5€, although I assume you're surgically taking about the states. Perrin's CdR is ~$10 I believe—we used to drink that almost every day when we lived in NY. Also Jelu from Argentina is a fantastic Pinot Noir for ~$10 as well I believe. Be careful with your price ranges there, the most expensive wines in the world are Pinot Noirs!
gowld 8y ago
Whiskey is 40% ABV, and wine is 13% ABV, So an $8 750mL bottle of wine is equivalent to a $25 750mL bottle of whiskey.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  If you're getting drunk, yes, they are equivalent. But pricing doesn't really scale with alcohol content, in particular given the extra work required to create whisk(e)y.
  - girvo 8y ago
    The sheer amount of tax here in Australia means price does scale nearly linearly with alcohol content, up to a ceiling anyway. Our laws are weird.
    - toomanybeersies 8y ago
      Things are all weird in Australia, as tax makes such a large proportion of the price (the tax on spirits is about $33 per litre, for non-Aussie HNers). I actually did some research, and my above comment isn't really right. Whisky is priced as a luxury good, the pricing isn't really related to cost price. Despite Australian taxes, Ardbeg 10 will set you back $85.90 for a 70cl in Australia, AU$76 in Britain, and AU$80 in the USA. Price only really scales to alcohol content for spirits and beer in Australia though, not wine. You can buy a 5 L box of wine for $9.

groby_b 8y ago

There is, however, a $15 bottle of Whiskey that beats Pappy every single time. (Well, used to be. They're not selling it any more.) And there are $80 bottles of wine that can't be approached by any of the $8 bottles. The thing is, both businesses are about both very subjective taste, and about marketing. You'll need to find what works for you, and roll with that. In both areas, spending more money makes it more likely you avoid the absolute disasters, but it doesn't guarantee you get something more than mediocre.

andperseand 8y ago
What is this $15 bottle of whiskey? I'd love to know what cheap bourbons are good.
- dhimes 8y ago
  Larceny is a little more but very nice; Buffalo Trace a bit more still but delicious. Disclaimer: I'm new to bourbon.
  - sulam 8y ago
    I don’t know how affordable it is but I’ll drink Whistlepig anytime I see it.
  - andperseand 8y ago
    Of the very few bourbons I've bought, Buffalo Trace and Wild Turkey 101 have been excellent value to me. I keep hearing Rittenhouse Rye as well, so that might be my next one to try...
    - thr0w__4w4y 8y ago
      Rittenhouse was a delightful find for me a few years ago. A friend and I ordered Manhattans, he asked for his to be made with Rittenhouse. Funny thing is, it's the only bourbon or rye that I drink straight... it is smooth and delicious. The people here who've mentioned Rittenhouse are doing you the same favor that my buddy did a few years ago. And it's very affordable, usually $22-$25 a bottle. As many have said, although taste is a very subjective thing, cost and enjoyment aren't always correlated...
- groby_b 8y ago
  I must shamefully admit: I don't recall the name. I have to go back to my tasting notes. This is based on memories from a few years ago. I just remember being thunderstruck by the fact that something so cheap was (for my taste) better than Van Winkle. (Which I considered in general overpriced, but still pretty damn good.)
Semaphor 8y ago
> In both areas, spending more money makes it more likely you avoid the absolute disasters, but it doesn't guarantee you get something more than mediocre. I agree very much. With whiskey I can generally say, I like the more expensive ones (to a limit) better, but then I also like the cheap 10yo (~$35) Laphroaig better than their more expensive 15yo (~$118) one.

bgribble 8y ago

> I enjoy great wine and it seldom costs more than $8 a bottle. You can definitely get really good wine cheap. But! Sometimes it's worth it to bump up. I drink a lot of whites these days because my wife can't tolerate red. I find that there is a sweet spot at about $25 (NYC retail prices) for whites that are noticeably better than cheaper ones -- French whites like Sancerre, decent Chablis, the less fancy Bourgognes; what I think of as new-style California Chardonnays (not oaky, more like French Chards). Then there's another sweet spot for whites at about $40, which includes some of my favorite bottles ever, which can change your idea about what good wine can taste like, if you don't usually "go there" pricewise.. I'll call out specifically the Alma Fria and Division Chardonnays, both from California, and in general a $40 bottle of Bourgogne will be very special. I also love natural (spontaneously fermented) wines as discussed in the article, but that's a whole different drinking experience, more like kombucha in a lot of ways than conventional wine.

peterwwillis 8y ago
I've hunted for a Sancerre, Vouvray, or Samur that compares to the 5 euro bottles I found in the bargain bin of a Carrefour in central France, to no avail. I've also never found Israeli or Greek wines here (the Greek wines can be so-so, but Israeli wine is amazing) and the Spanish choices over here are often disappointing. Trying to find any real sake is even more difficult. However, I think that if you bargain hunt and don't go for "favorite bottles" you should never have to spend more than $25 for a really good wine. If you divorce yourself from reviews and labels, and pick the wine solely based on region, varietal, grower/producer, and year, there are great wines all over the place, and you end up finding new things you never would have tried before.

cschmidt 8y ago

Perhaps you like white wine? I can't imagine an $8 red that was very good. If so, please let me know what it is. Price certainly varies with variety. A Pinot might be $20-40 while a cab would be more like $40-80 for the same quality.

poulsbohemian 8y ago
I live in Washington's wine country. There are lots of good bottles sub-$20, especially if you join a wine club and find case discounts. Here, there are plenty of > $50 bottles, often priced that way as positioning to the buyers they want to attract far more than as an actual measure of quality. For small time producers, there's a very real need for a premium price because when you are only bottling 5000-10,000 bottles, you gotta at least break even on them.
jknightco 8y ago
Here in Spain there are lots of fantastic wines around 5€, although I assume you're surgically taking about the states. Perrin's CdR is ~$10 I believe—we used to drink that almost every day when we lived in NY. Also Jelu from Argentina is a fantastic Pinot Noir for ~$10 as well I believe. Be careful with your price ranges there, the most expensive wines in the world are Pinot Noirs!

gowld 8y ago

Whiskey is 40% ABV, and wine is 13% ABV, So an $8 750mL bottle of wine is equivalent to a $25 750mL bottle of whiskey.

toomanybeersies 8y ago
If you're getting drunk, yes, they are equivalent. But pricing doesn't really scale with alcohol content, in particular given the extra work required to create whisk(e)y.
- girvo 8y ago
  The sheer amount of tax here in Australia means price does scale nearly linearly with alcohol content, up to a ceiling anyway. Our laws are weird.
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    Things are all weird in Australia, as tax makes such a large proportion of the price (the tax on spirits is about $33 per litre, for non-Aussie HNers). I actually did some research, and my above comment isn't really right. Whisky is priced as a luxury good, the pricing isn't really related to cost price. Despite Australian taxes, Ardbeg 10 will set you back $85.90 for a 70cl in Australia, AU$76 in Britain, and AU$80 in the USA. Price only really scales to alcohol content for spirits and beer in Australia though, not wine. You can buy a 5 L box of wine for $9.