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they'll comment on different 'subtle notes of chocolate' in a product that is entirely made of grapes and yeast. This, at least, is IMO not a valid criticism.

• meddlepal 8y ago
  And it's often done on purpose.
• ravenstine 8y ago
  Are there any studies that show how reliably people can perceive these subtle notes?
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  • amyjess 8y ago
    Go drink a Hefeweizen and tell me what you think. I recommend something by Ayinger. Though chances are most American supermarkets will just have Franziskaner, which is perfectly fine if you can't find Ayinger (note: avoid American examples, even if they call themselves "Hefeweizen". American wheat beers are a totally different style and lack the banana and clove notes of German Hefeweizen). It's not subtle. At all. Hefeweizen contains large amounts of both banana esters and clove phenols, and drinking one is like drinking spicy banana bread. The first time I had one, it was so different from everything I had before that that it was outright jarring (this was shortly after I turned 21, before I knew much about beer).
    • kawfey 8y ago
      This, except I first tried a hefe and noticed the banana bread flavor in Public House Brewery's Hefeweizen, which is a US brewery. Its a flavor present in every hefe I've drank and brewed myself, but I won't argue the fact German Hefe's are a whole nother level of flavor.
      • amyjess 8y ago
        The reason why I mentioned avoiding US breweries was because of the American Wheat Beer style [0], which is very different from an actual Hefe, and unfortunately some AWBs use "Hefeweizen" in the brand name (e.g. Widmer, and I think Pyramid too). Of course there are some US breweries who brew to the German style, and I'll take your word for it that Public House Brewery does, but my suggestion of avoiding US breweries was aimed at someone who isn't familiar with beer at all and probably wouldn't take nearly as well to "pull out your phone and Google every example you see in the supermarket to make sure it's a proper Hefe and not an AWB" as they would to "look at the label and see if the brewery is German". [0] http://www.bjcp.org/style/2015/1/1D/american-wheat-beer/ http://www.bjcp.org/style/2015/1/1D/american-wheat-beer/
    • arca_vorago 8y ago
      Hofbrau is imho the best Hefe that is easily available in the states. My story is I spent about a year trying to get into wine... admitedly for the slightly shallow goal of impressing women, and then I spent a summer in Germany with some family and came back a beer aficionado, and haven't looked back since. The American craft scene has exploded since then and it's easy to find phenomenal beers here. (though good german/belgium imports are still my goto) I have, however, been learning how to cook (I can not thank blue apron enough), and have been really enjoying using wine in my cooking. The main wines I still drink are port, madeira, pino, and icewine.
    • lutorm 8y ago
      My personal favorite is Paulaner. Erdinger is also good, but in general any German hefeweizen way surpasses any American wheat. The closest I've found is Widmer. And as far as I know there are no US examples of Dunkel Weizen, the dark German wheat beer.
      • greglindahl 8y ago
        I dislike hefewizen in general, I'm just a dark beer kind of guy, but OH MY GOD Erdinger Dunkel Weizen is amazing, and it's become fairly easy to find in the US.
        • dbrgn 8y ago
          I totally agree. The Erdinger Dunkel is so much better than the "regular" version!
      • rdtsc 8y ago
        > My personal favorite is Paulaner. Mine too. I got it on sale I think at Costco or some place like that on a whim. It tasted very different than most American wheat beers.
  • bgribble 8y ago
    For wine at least, any sommelier at a high-end restaurant has been through a course that you don't pass until you can perceive them. I know a couple of people who have been through it, it's for real. They teach very specific sensory cues and you practice a lot. There are certainly wines that can confuse even a trained person but for the most part it's not magic.
  • gascan 8y ago
    I'm not quite sure how to answer you. It really depends on how the drink was made. These chemicals can be so overwhelming they punch you in the nose and make it undrinkable (I've made a few of those), they can be virtually absent, or anywhere inbetween. The pragmatic answer to what I think you are asking is basically- in the wine world, a very few people have proven they really can distinguish just about anything. For ordinary people, you can appreciate the notes with training, but probably can't pass a blindfold test on closely related wines.
  • cascom 8y ago
    I don’t know about studies - but the people who are master sommeliers that can do incredible blind tastings consistently give me comfort that it’s not all hocus pocus
  • zrobotics 8y ago
    I wouldn't call them subtle, at least in the context of a screwed up batch of homebrew beer. I've certainly poured out a batch that tasted so strongly of bananas that it was undrinkable.
  • skywhopper 8y ago
    Such flavors in beer are often far more pronounced than in wine. The bananas and cloves thing is not subtle, and a lot of the chemicals involved are actually the same, so it's no surprise the taste is there. In wine, the words for flavors are often not meant to be exact. Because there _are_ no direct analogues to the flavors. So you have to try to communicate using words people do know. And if that turns inward and jargony, that's simply how language functions in any community. It should be no surprise that people experience flavors differently, so of course ratings will vary and descriptions will contradict each other. If apples or hamburgers or spring water were reviewed with the detail and scrutiny that wine is, you'd get the same results. But, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to communicate with each other about the experience of drinking the wine. Sure, it's almost entirely subjective. No wine expert will disagree with that.
  • pfranz 8y ago
    What he's talking about isn't usually subtle. I think the confusing part is when he's saying "bananas" or "cloves" it's a very distinctive flavor that's reminiscent of those things. That's just the closest flavor we can put a name to. Very fresh, well brewed coffee has a "cherry" flavor...it's not cherry, but is distinctive. These all come from a measurable chemical that can be reliably and consistently perceived. Separate from that are the more subtle, more subjective flavors. I see it in beer descriptions, but they seem to be more ingrained and taken more seriously with wine.
• amyjess 8y ago
  And then on top of that you have strains of yeast that are specifically bred to produce large amounts of both, such as the yeast strains used in Hefeweizen (German-style wheat beer; specifically, the cloudy kind that still contains the yeast sediment) [yes, I know you know this, but I'm explaining for the wider audience]. In fact, the main difference between German-style and American-style wheat beers is that German-style examples have lots of banana esters and clove phenols, while American-style examples don't. The sole reason for the difference is the strain of yeast used. And it's not just a wheat beer thing: in general, American yeast strains are bred to produce cleaner fermentations than European strains. The distinct flavors of English and especially Belgian beers are due to the fermentation byproducts produced by the local yeast. I love beer chemistry.
  • soundwave106 8y ago
    Homebrewer here as well. There's plenty of chemical compounds that yeast produce that give various notes that kind of resemble something else. For instance aldehydes (notably acetaldehyde) is a yeast byproduct that gives off a "green apple" flavor. Usually in beers this is considered a flaw, but I notice that some wines promote that aspect as positive if it's not overwhelming. Diacetyl is another one -- this has a "buttery" flavor. This is considered a flaw in some styles, but is naturally present in others (English ales notably often have a little bit of this in it). Some wines are very "buttery", I understand in particular those that use a process called malolactic fermentation (where diacetyl is a byproduct) are prone to it. From what I can Google you can get chocolate notes in wine either from the tannins in grapes, or the charring process used on barrels. However, I haven't been able to Google specific chemicals. In beer, "chocolate notes" can come from some of the toasted / roasted malts out there (IMHO more on the pale end of the "chocolate malt" spectrum -- darker "chocolate malts" taste more "coffee" like to me). A fair bit of places offer a "off flavor" kit for beers that allow you to train your tastebuds on at least the common "faults".
    • kawfey 8y ago
      On an extreme side of "off flavors," a friend of mine "scientifically" brewed a few 1gal batches to see what happens when you don't follow the rules: one fermented in the heat of the summer, one without proper sanitization (except for the bottles), one he spat in, and one he dropped a few dog hairs in. None of them were suitable for consumption.
• jpk 8y ago
  I tend to agree. I'll also point out that it's partly an issue of language. I feel like (at least in the case of English) the words for describing taste are less developed than, say, sights. So while I can describe a car finish as "matte black", or "iridescent blue-green" without resorting to simile, I can't describe flavors without saying something like, "it tastes like {another thing you may have also tasted}". So wine tasters end up leaning on seemingly wacky comparisons to communicate the subtleties they perceive (real or imagined).
  • calt 8y ago
    I always thought that "notes of blank" was kind of silly until I saw this flavor wheel for coffee [0], and it clicked that tasters simply had a vocabulary that they tended to draw from because flavors are hard to describe. [0] https://counterculturecoffee.com/learn/resource-center/coffee-tasters-flavor-wheel https://counterculturecoffee.com/learn/resource-center/coffe... Edit: fixed link
    • sgc 8y ago
      They are blocking hotlinking on that image, do you have the page link?
      • gingericha 8y ago
        https://counterculturecoffee.com/learn/resource-center/coffee-tasters-flavor-wheel https://counterculturecoffee.com/learn/resource-center/coffe...
    • jobigoud 8y ago
      I like the body gradient indicating the viscosity. Except for the 2% milk, this looks like they couldn't find the right adjective.
    • dbrgn 8y ago
      I can totally relate. For me, it "clicked" when I saw a TV show where one of the moderators went to a tasting session and tried to learn how to taste wine. They showed an aroma wheel similar to this one: http://www.regalwineco.com/sites/all/themes/newregalwineco/education/AromaWheel.jpg http://www.regalwineco.com/sites/all/themes/newregalwineco/e... The aroma wheel helps to categorize the different tastes, and to give them names. It's really hard to describe what you're tasting if you're not experienced. I'm not experienced at all, I just know whether I like a wine or not, and I can describe it as "heavy", "fruity", "dry" or "light". But the aroma wheel and the vocabulary helps when trying to taste lighter nuances. And sometimes you take a sip, and are instantly reminded of berries, or of oak wood :) Does it matter? I don't know. In the end, I either like a wine or not. But if you're interested in a topic it helps to share a vocabulary to describe your experiences.
• jartelt 8y ago
  I agree, it's not a good critique. I have definitely tasted wines where I felt like there was hint of chocolate in the background. It is also common for wines to have a hint of berry flavor. Grapes and yeast can make all kinds of flavor. Sure, a lot of wine descriptions are super douchey and go overboard on the descriptors. But yea, Belgian beers can taste can have esters than taste banana-like and NE IPAs can taste like orange juice, both with no fruit added.
• thatcat 8y ago
  This may be off topic, but I just brewed a batch that is sour and citrusy like grapefruit juice. After searching around I found the distinctive grapefruit flavor compared to other citrus is the result of a sulfur containing terpene, mercaptan. I've been trying to figure out what may have caused it to develop in this batch, but not others brewed with the same yeast. What source would you reccomend for trying to trace back flavors to the metabolic processes in the yeast?
  • jersully72 8y ago
    > What source would you reccomend for trying to trace back flavors to the metabolic processes in the yeast? A homebrew forum.
• rsync 8y ago
  "This, at least, is IMO not a valid criticism. I make beer, and two easy examples are cloves & banana." Agreed. In fact, I will go further and support the notion that red wines can give you "brick" and "chalk" tastes, etc., even though I have never actually tasted brick.