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> when js only use 1. That's not true with web workers. And "How many workers should I spin up?" is a common question people actually using them want to answe

> when js only use 1. That's not true with web workers. And "How many workers should I spin up?" is a common question people actually using them want to answer... I'm highly sympathetic to reducing fingerprinting attack area, by the way; we should just be clear that providing sites less information does mean they can't do various performance optimizations, and in some cases can't even provide correct functionality. That tension is at the heart of all the anti-fingerprinting efforts browsers are involved in... Asking users for permission isn't really a solution either, unfortunately: all the bad actors will just spam permission prompts continuously. I've browsed before in a "prompt for attempts to set cookies" mode, back when Firefox had this feature. It wasn't pretty, even in the mid-2000s. > when will you enforce a no third party cookie by default? When it can be done without breaking too many users' day-to-day browsing. > Especially for website that don't comply with the do not track header How does one go about determining that? This is an honest question; I'm not aware of any database of sites that classifies them along this dimension. Dicslosure: I work on Firefox and various people including myself have been pushing for various anti-tracking bits for a while now. Some of them have shipped; others are in the works.

tokyodude 8y ago
I'm actually curious how useful fingerprinting is. One the one hand maybe your average enthusiast has a unique fingerprint. On the other every model of iPad/iPhone on the same OS version should have the same fingerprint as every other of the same model/OS. Also >> when will you enforce a no third party cookie by default? > > When it can be done without breaking too many users' day-to-day browsing. Doesn't Safari do this already? Isn't that proof that millions of users (every iPhone, iPad, and greater than 30% of all mac users) are having no real issues using the web with that in place?
- Whitestrake 8y ago
  Are you asking how useful fingerprinting is, or are you asking how effective it is? For the former, any amount of fingerprinting lets ad companies make the case that their ads are better or worth more money. For the latter, the EFF Panopticlick research project seems to be pretty good at giving you an idea: https://panopticlick.eff.org/ https://panopticlick.eff.org/ I don't have an iPad/iPhone etc. to test Safari with; seems like they'd be amongst the most homogeneous of devices. Perhaps someone with one of those devices could tell us if the EFF can uniquely identify their device. It was able to uniquely identify all of my devices.
  - tokyodude 8y ago
    The panopticlick site is hyperbole (or in other words poorly implemented). Since no one visits it it will tell you an iPhoneX in Los Angeles is 1 in a million. Their site doesn't take IP into account it's only the taking what it can get from the phone. Timezone for example and then all the normal fingerprints. And yet every iPhoneX is exactly the same. Calculate the penetration of iPhoneX and it should be more like 1 in 100 or 1 in 33 or even one in 20 not 1 in a million. It expires data which make sense but any site wanting to actually track you would need to be on popular sites. As such it would need a unique fingerprint. It won't get one for an iPhoneX which I'm just using as an example. you can choose any popular device.
- bzbarsky 8y ago
  > On the other every model of iPad/iPhone on the same OS version should have the same fingerprint Not quite. For example, they might be on different networks, have different zoom levels set, etc. > Doesn't Safari do this already? Last I checked, Safari "blocks" (not quite; it's double-keying, not actually blocking) some third-party cookies, but not all. In particular, it doesn't block third-party cookies from sites you have visited in a first-party context. So for example it doesn't block Facebook or Google trackers. The Firefox "no third party cookies" mode, which actually blocks all third-party cookies, is quite different from the Safari behavior...
mickael-kerjean 8y ago
I reread my initial message and I'm sorry if the tone felt a bit rude, It's not an attack against Firefox but against all those "industry best practises" that are so unfair to everyone. Firefox is pretty much the only hope when it comes to enforce better practises across our entire industry that are more privacy friendly. Be sure, I have a lot of respect for what you are doing. I'm just a random dude that feel very sad everytime I try to dig what all those website are actually made of, pushing for behaviors that are against everything I stands for: - even the W3C get trap (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWtqPzFUQAExO2h.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWtqPzFUQAExO2h.jpg) probably without their knowledge but still that's the W3C ... - twitter tracking youporn's user considering their track record when it comes to database leak. The damage that can be done here from a political perspective would be absolutly terrible. - ..... many other examples as you probably know a lot more > That's not true with web workers. And "How many workers should I spin up?" is a common question people actually using them want to answer... It would be common when it comes to create real world complex apps which isn't what most of the web is about (I know 1 person isn't very representative). Those questions are legit but feel to me as an edge case, not the general rule considering the market share of wordpress and co. I would love to have a popup when it comes to reveal information that should be considered as edge case. If a newspaper need access to this information, there's small chance it benefits my experience but more the complex network of advertising and even sometimes some real time bidding system that have performance imperative for which web workers are a great fit > Asking users for permission isn't really a solution either, unfortunately: all the bad actors will just spam permission prompts continuously. As I see, It doesn't mean the solution itself is wrong but rather a correct compromise hasn't been fount yet. There's a world between a website creating a cookie for legit purposes and a dependencies of this website that rely on another one that rely on another one. > How does one go about determining that? This is an honest question; I'm not aware of any database of sites that classifies them along this dimension. Considering some actors like Cloudflare that track a big part of internet, a database approach is broken by design. As I see it, the only approach that can work is behavior based: if a third party website is forcing a cookie despite having a do not track header, it's shady and thus shouldn't be acceptable (eg: twitter, facebook and a lot more as the "industry standard" is to ignore the DNT). What about you'd do like Chrome did by forcing HTTPS enverywhere, by bringing a message "this site has unfair trackers" instead of "this site isn't secure" > reducing fingerprinting attack area, by the way; we should just be clear that providing sites less information does mean they can't do various performance optimizations, Not all the time, I can think of a few things that shouldn't have such an impact if implemented well: - I've read a bit around fingerprinting using canvas and webgl. Why not adding some sort of randomness that are pretty much invisible to the eyes of a human but put those type of algorithm innefective? - don't make the navigator object global across all pages and make a few tinny changes everytime. For example Firefox provides the buildID as part of the navigator object. Mine is on this machine: "20180327223059". Will it really break the world if some existing website receives "20180327223434" while another receive "20180327224387"? If somebody is making such optimisation as to know the exact time the build was created, it sounds shady and creepy at best. I understand some optimisations aren't possible without braking a lot of website for which your users will mostly wonder why they can't navigate it properly but why not creating a different mode, let's say a safe mode that expressly say some website might appear weird but that's only because you're taking active measure to block any sort of trackers? As of today, the private navigation isn't really effective at protecting against fingerprinting
_jomo 8y ago
> When it can be done without breaking too many users' day-to-day browsing. I've had 3rd party cookies disabled for years. I can count the number of times this has caused trouble on one hand.
- jamesmcm 8y ago
  I find it's best to use uBlock Origin Matrix though, as it gives you more control when things do break.
- bzbarsky 8y ago
  I have too, and I can too. Though one of those was a bank that turned out to be a showstopper; I have to flip the pref, then flip it back every time I interact with them. Not some thing I can ask "normal" users to do. It also turns out that this varies a _lot_ based on browsing patterns. For example, I never use the "log in with Facebook/Google/etc" things. People who do report a lot more problems from blanket third-party cookie blocking.

tokyodude 8y ago

I'm actually curious how useful fingerprinting is. One the one hand maybe your average enthusiast has a unique fingerprint. On the other every model of iPad/iPhone on the same OS version should have the same fingerprint as every other of the same model/OS. Also >> when will you enforce a no third party cookie by default? > > When it can be done without breaking too many users' day-to-day browsing. Doesn't Safari do this already? Isn't that proof that millions of users (every iPhone, iPad, and greater than 30% of all mac users) are having no real issues using the web with that in place?

Whitestrake 8y ago
Are you asking how useful fingerprinting is, or are you asking how effective it is? For the former, any amount of fingerprinting lets ad companies make the case that their ads are better or worth more money. For the latter, the EFF Panopticlick research project seems to be pretty good at giving you an idea: https://panopticlick.eff.org/ https://panopticlick.eff.org/ I don't have an iPad/iPhone etc. to test Safari with; seems like they'd be amongst the most homogeneous of devices. Perhaps someone with one of those devices could tell us if the EFF can uniquely identify their device. It was able to uniquely identify all of my devices.
- tokyodude 8y ago
  The panopticlick site is hyperbole (or in other words poorly implemented). Since no one visits it it will tell you an iPhoneX in Los Angeles is 1 in a million. Their site doesn't take IP into account it's only the taking what it can get from the phone. Timezone for example and then all the normal fingerprints. And yet every iPhoneX is exactly the same. Calculate the penetration of iPhoneX and it should be more like 1 in 100 or 1 in 33 or even one in 20 not 1 in a million. It expires data which make sense but any site wanting to actually track you would need to be on popular sites. As such it would need a unique fingerprint. It won't get one for an iPhoneX which I'm just using as an example. you can choose any popular device.
bzbarsky 8y ago
> On the other every model of iPad/iPhone on the same OS version should have the same fingerprint Not quite. For example, they might be on different networks, have different zoom levels set, etc. > Doesn't Safari do this already? Last I checked, Safari "blocks" (not quite; it's double-keying, not actually blocking) some third-party cookies, but not all. In particular, it doesn't block third-party cookies from sites you have visited in a first-party context. So for example it doesn't block Facebook or Google trackers. The Firefox "no third party cookies" mode, which actually blocks all third-party cookies, is quite different from the Safari behavior...

mickael-kerjean 8y ago

I reread my initial message and I'm sorry if the tone felt a bit rude, It's not an attack against Firefox but against all those "industry best practises" that are so unfair to everyone. Firefox is pretty much the only hope when it comes to enforce better practises across our entire industry that are more privacy friendly. Be sure, I have a lot of respect for what you are doing. I'm just a random dude that feel very sad everytime I try to dig what all those website are actually made of, pushing for behaviors that are against everything I stands for: - even the W3C get trap (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWtqPzFUQAExO2h.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWtqPzFUQAExO2h.jpg) probably without their knowledge but still that's the W3C ... - twitter tracking youporn's user considering their track record when it comes to database leak. The damage that can be done here from a political perspective would be absolutly terrible. - ..... many other examples as you probably know a lot more > That's not true with web workers. And "How many workers should I spin up?" is a common question people actually using them want to answer... It would be common when it comes to create real world complex apps which isn't what most of the web is about (I know 1 person isn't very representative). Those questions are legit but feel to me as an edge case, not the general rule considering the market share of wordpress and co. I would love to have a popup when it comes to reveal information that should be considered as edge case. If a newspaper need access to this information, there's small chance it benefits my experience but more the complex network of advertising and even sometimes some real time bidding system that have performance imperative for which web workers are a great fit > Asking users for permission isn't really a solution either, unfortunately: all the bad actors will just spam permission prompts continuously. As I see, It doesn't mean the solution itself is wrong but rather a correct compromise hasn't been fount yet. There's a world between a website creating a cookie for legit purposes and a dependencies of this website that rely on another one that rely on another one. > How does one go about determining that? This is an honest question; I'm not aware of any database of sites that classifies them along this dimension. Considering some actors like Cloudflare that track a big part of internet, a database approach is broken by design. As I see it, the only approach that can work is behavior based: if a third party website is forcing a cookie despite having a do not track header, it's shady and thus shouldn't be acceptable (eg: twitter, facebook and a lot more as the "industry standard" is to ignore the DNT). What about you'd do like Chrome did by forcing HTTPS enverywhere, by bringing a message "this site has unfair trackers" instead of "this site isn't secure" > reducing fingerprinting attack area, by the way; we should just be clear that providing sites less information does mean they can't do various performance optimizations, Not all the time, I can think of a few things that shouldn't have such an impact if implemented well: - I've read a bit around fingerprinting using canvas and webgl. Why not adding some sort of randomness that are pretty much invisible to the eyes of a human but put those type of algorithm innefective? - don't make the navigator object global across all pages and make a few tinny changes everytime. For example Firefox provides the buildID as part of the navigator object. Mine is on this machine: "20180327223059". Will it really break the world if some existing website receives "20180327223434" while another receive "20180327224387"? If somebody is making such optimisation as to know the exact time the build was created, it sounds shady and creepy at best. I understand some optimisations aren't possible without braking a lot of website for which your users will mostly wonder why they can't navigate it properly but why not creating a different mode, let's say a safe mode that expressly say some website might appear weird but that's only because you're taking active measure to block any sort of trackers? As of today, the private navigation isn't really effective at protecting against fingerprinting

_jomo 8y ago

> When it can be done without breaking too many users' day-to-day browsing. I've had 3rd party cookies disabled for years. I can count the number of times this has caused trouble on one hand.

jamesmcm 8y ago
I find it's best to use uBlock Origin Matrix though, as it gives you more control when things do break.
bzbarsky 8y ago
I have too, and I can too. Though one of those was a bank that turned out to be a showstopper; I have to flip the pref, then flip it back every time I interact with them. Not some thing I can ask "normal" users to do. It also turns out that this varies a _lot_ based on browsing patterns. For example, I never use the "log in with Facebook/Google/etc" things. People who do report a lot more problems from blanket third-party cookie blocking.