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So because you think that Apple isn't listening to your needs, you can take the OS that they created and use it however you want to? I am honestly surprised at

So because you think that Apple isn't listening to your needs, you can take the OS that they created and use it however you want to? I am honestly surprised at how many people in this thread don't seem to care about Apple's right to decide how people use the software that they licensed from Apple.

ksk 8y ago
Ive come to accept that nerds only care about copyright when its about GPL'd code, and not music/movies/proprietary software.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  I could see how someone is more frustrated by theft from the commons than one of the wealthiest multinationals in the world.
Hamuko 8y ago
I care as much as Apple does, which is to say, not at all. I got my license fair and square out of Apple's App Store with the purchase of a Mac. I then put it on a flash drive and installed it on another PC. Didn't fail any license check whatsoever since Apple has no interest in making any.
- wilsonnb 8y ago
  It's right there in section 2B of the EULA that you're only permitted to install it on Apple computers. Why would they put that in there if they didn't care? https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macOS1013.pdf https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macOS1013.pdf
  - Hamuko 8y ago
    Why would they not implement a license key to macOS installation if they did care? iTunes EULA forbids users from developing missile weapons with iTunes, but I sincerely doubt that Apple actually cares about this fine point. Also, as a document, macOS EULA is worth to me as much as a piece of toilet paper.
    - wilsonnb 8y ago
      So your stance is that companies have no legal right to decide how their software is used by those who license it? Their only option is to make such uses impossible? That seems like a strange stance to take. Why shouldn't companies have legal protection over how their software is used? I can lease a car. Why not software?
      - tylerflick 8y ago
        Lease a car yes, but Ford has no right to tell you how to drive once you have purchased one of their cars.
        wilsonnb 8y ago
        If I purchase a car from Ford, then yes, they have no right to tell me how to drive it. If I lease a car from Ford, then they absolutely have a right to tell me how I can drive it. It's not my car - it's their car. Most car leases do stipulate how you can drive it. At the very least they have a restriction on the number of miles you can drive. If someone has purchased a copy of MacOS from Apple, then I agree that they can do whatever they want with it. The thing is, no one purchases MacOS from Apple. They only lease it from Apple. That's why Apple has a right to decide how it's used.
        satsuma 8y ago
        there's a disconnect here though because ford offers you the option of direct purchase. you don't have that with macos. i'd be willing to bet people who use hackintosh would be willing to buy a key and do things the right way if apple offered, but they don't so they find alternatives. it's the same kind of argument used with media piracy: make something easy enough to buy and use legally, and people will spend money on it. make it convoluted and require hoops, and those same people will find workarounds
        wilsonnb 8y ago
        I'd be willing to bet on that too. I think offering a license key to put MacOS on whatever hardware you want would be really popular. I'd probably buy one myself. That said, convenience is a good argument for why things like media piracy and hackintoshes happen but not an argument at all for whether or not those actions are morally justified.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
jasonlotito 8y ago
> I am honestly surprised Oh, sweet summer child. You have no idea. Welcome to HN, where this is the norm. And don't for a second believe Apple hasn't benefited from this attitude in the past. Quite the contrary, some could make the argument that not caring about copyright helped bring Apple to where it is today.
- wilsonnb 8y ago
  I'd like to hear that argument. My guess is that it has something to do with iTunes and music piracy but I'm not sure.
shortformblog 8y ago
This site is called Hacker News, right? Certainly, taking a piece of hardware I own and making it do something it was not designed to do properly fits the description of "hacking," right? I appreciate Apple's value as a company as much as the next guy, but this was not a decision made lightly. If they want $100 from me over the right to run their OS on my computer (as I believe they used to charge during the PowerPC days), fine. But their failure to give consumers the option, in this and so many other cases, highlights a big frustration longtime users have with the company nowadays. I'm sure Apple knows about the Hackintosh community, and I'm sure they follow it. I also know they have done little to stop it. As a user, I want them to care about my needs as much as they do about their bottom line. They used to.
- wilsonnb 8y ago
  I understand that people are usually driven to build a hackintosh out of frustration with Apple's hardware offerings. That doesn't change the fact that it's against their licensing agreement. Anyone who wants to be able to sell their software in the future (or write software for a company that sells software) should care about that and have good reasons for violating it if they choose to do so. Many people in this thread seem to accept that it's a morally okay thing to do without thinking about it at all. The site may be called Hacker News but it's full of mainstream software developers, many of whom work for companies like Apple. It's also (as far as I know) always been more focused on the startup scene than the hacking scene. You would think that people who's goal is to build their own business would care about this sort of thing.
  - Hamuko 8y ago
    Our software business is not dependent on shrink-wrap EULAs and neither is Apple's.
  - shortformblog 8y ago
    I'm not a software developer, I'm a technology enthusiast.
    - 8y ago

ksk 8y ago

Ive come to accept that nerds only care about copyright when its about GPL'd code, and not music/movies/proprietary software.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
I could see how someone is more frustrated by theft from the commons than one of the wealthiest multinationals in the world.

Hamuko 8y ago

I care as much as Apple does, which is to say, not at all. I got my license fair and square out of Apple's App Store with the purchase of a Mac. I then put it on a flash drive and installed it on another PC. Didn't fail any license check whatsoever since Apple has no interest in making any.

wilsonnb 8y ago
It's right there in section 2B of the EULA that you're only permitted to install it on Apple computers. Why would they put that in there if they didn't care? https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macOS1013.pdf https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macOS1013.pdf
- Hamuko 8y ago
  Why would they not implement a license key to macOS installation if they did care? iTunes EULA forbids users from developing missile weapons with iTunes, but I sincerely doubt that Apple actually cares about this fine point. Also, as a document, macOS EULA is worth to me as much as a piece of toilet paper.
  - wilsonnb 8y ago
    So your stance is that companies have no legal right to decide how their software is used by those who license it? Their only option is to make such uses impossible? That seems like a strange stance to take. Why shouldn't companies have legal protection over how their software is used? I can lease a car. Why not software?
    - tylerflick 8y ago
      Lease a car yes, but Ford has no right to tell you how to drive once you have purchased one of their cars.
      - wilsonnb 8y ago
        If I purchase a car from Ford, then yes, they have no right to tell me how to drive it. If I lease a car from Ford, then they absolutely have a right to tell me how I can drive it. It's not my car - it's their car. Most car leases do stipulate how you can drive it. At the very least they have a restriction on the number of miles you can drive. If someone has purchased a copy of MacOS from Apple, then I agree that they can do whatever they want with it. The thing is, no one purchases MacOS from Apple. They only lease it from Apple. That's why Apple has a right to decide how it's used.
        satsuma 8y ago
        there's a disconnect here though because ford offers you the option of direct purchase. you don't have that with macos. i'd be willing to bet people who use hackintosh would be willing to buy a key and do things the right way if apple offered, but they don't so they find alternatives. it's the same kind of argument used with media piracy: make something easy enough to buy and use legally, and people will spend money on it. make it convoluted and require hoops, and those same people will find workarounds
        wilsonnb 8y ago
        I'd be willing to bet on that too. I think offering a license key to put MacOS on whatever hardware you want would be really popular. I'd probably buy one myself. That said, convenience is a good argument for why things like media piracy and hackintoshes happen but not an argument at all for whether or not those actions are morally justified.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

jasonlotito 8y ago

> I am honestly surprised Oh, sweet summer child. You have no idea. Welcome to HN, where this is the norm. And don't for a second believe Apple hasn't benefited from this attitude in the past. Quite the contrary, some could make the argument that not caring about copyright helped bring Apple to where it is today.

wilsonnb 8y ago
I'd like to hear that argument. My guess is that it has something to do with iTunes and music piracy but I'm not sure.

shortformblog 8y ago

This site is called Hacker News, right? Certainly, taking a piece of hardware I own and making it do something it was not designed to do properly fits the description of "hacking," right? I appreciate Apple's value as a company as much as the next guy, but this was not a decision made lightly. If they want $100 from me over the right to run their OS on my computer (as I believe they used to charge during the PowerPC days), fine. But their failure to give consumers the option, in this and so many other cases, highlights a big frustration longtime users have with the company nowadays. I'm sure Apple knows about the Hackintosh community, and I'm sure they follow it. I also know they have done little to stop it. As a user, I want them to care about my needs as much as they do about their bottom line. They used to.

wilsonnb 8y ago
I understand that people are usually driven to build a hackintosh out of frustration with Apple's hardware offerings. That doesn't change the fact that it's against their licensing agreement. Anyone who wants to be able to sell their software in the future (or write software for a company that sells software) should care about that and have good reasons for violating it if they choose to do so. Many people in this thread seem to accept that it's a morally okay thing to do without thinking about it at all. The site may be called Hacker News but it's full of mainstream software developers, many of whom work for companies like Apple. It's also (as far as I know) always been more focused on the startup scene than the hacking scene. You would think that people who's goal is to build their own business would care about this sort of thing.
- Hamuko 8y ago
  Our software business is not dependent on shrink-wrap EULAs and neither is Apple's.
- shortformblog 8y ago
  I'm not a software developer, I'm a technology enthusiast.
  - 8y ago