3 ms·

Having recently learnt that Feynman seems to have treated women quite badly [1]. I feel slightly uncomfortable about this article, it feels more like hero worsh

by xevb3k 8y ago

Having recently learnt that Feynman seems to have treated women quite badly [1]. I feel slightly uncomfortable about this article, it feels more like hero worship than anything else. Feynman no doubt did some interesting work in Physics. But the work discussed here doesn’t appear to be particularly distinguished. It does not follow that someone did interesting work on X therefore everything they did must be valuable and interesting. I suppose what I’m trying to say is that individuals are a complex mixture of good and bad. And that there’s a danger that an individual who has done interesting work in one area is seen as a universal genius, and an ideal to be emulated. This unfortunately is not the case. [1] https://restructure.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/sexist-feynman-called-a-woman-worse-than-a-whore/ https://restructure.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/sexist-feynman-... for example...

jonnybgood 8y ago
Individuals are not a complex mixture of good and bad. Almost nobody commits what might be considered a bad action just for the sake of being a bad person. We should not be so readily to apply black and white moral judgments on others.
- xevb3k 8y ago
  Good and Bad are loosely defined terms. I guess in this case it might be better to say “currrently socially unacceptable behavior which is considered selfish and harmful to others”. It seems self apparent that calling a woman a whore for not having sex in exchange for a sandwich is socially unacceptable and harmful behavior. But I would guess it’s probably possible to find data to support this.
icebraining 8y ago
Why do you feel this article is hero worship?
- xevb3k 8y ago
  Would this article be of general interest if it wasn’t about Feynman? (I don’t believe so) The work Feynman did in Biology that’s discussed here doesn’t seem to be particularly ground breaking, or interesting. It feels like it’s only being treated as such because Feynman did interesting work in other areas and is somewhat idolized for this.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Would this article be of general interest if it wasn’t about Feynman? Probably not, but I don't think being interested in an individual necessarily means idolizing them. In fact, sometimes the actions that we consider abhorrent is what makes them interesting. That's not the case here, but still, I think there's potential value in studying how a very good physicist approached a foreign subject matter.
mjfl 8y ago
I'm perfectly fine reading about Feynman's scientific pursuits in full knowledge of these anecdotes, because they are interesting and he was a brilliant man, and I don't see him as any more flawed than any other human. I especially couldn't care less about his thoughts relating to bars since they are by nature, back then and now, a warzone between nasty men and nasty women.
- xevb3k 8y ago
  But, I suppose the point is that work on Biology and Physics is as far removed as his work on Physics and picking up women in bars... The work discussed in the paper, is not particularly interesting in isolation.
chatmasta 8y ago
To play devils advocate and give him the benefit of the doubt... wasn’t the 1950’s a much different time in terms of respect for women? Reading that excerpt, I got the sense he was writing from the perspective of his past-self, in an almost self-deprecating way. He’s citing that incident of an extreme example of how literally he would follow instructions. By choosing it as an extreme example, he’s effectively acknowledging that the attitude was disrespectful / wrong. Granted I haven’t read the whole book, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there is some crucial context missing from those excerpts. Feynman did, after all, write the words himself.
- xevb3k 8y ago
  Perhaps my usage of the words “good and bad” implied a moral judgement. But, that’s not really my intention. What I’m saying, is that it’s unwise to idolize people because of their work in one area and then elevate (or more worryingly emulate) there work in other areas. Like his treatment of women, Feynman’s work in Biology is not really very interesting. It wouldn’t stand up on its own merits... the only reason to talk about it is if you treat Feynman as some kind of Hero/ideal. Feynman is not really a wonderful person to idolize (not that anybody is)...
- icebraining 8y ago
  Having read the book, I didn't get the impression he was criticizing himself. It read as just another story of an experiment, which how it seems he approached most of life (and which is what makes the book interesting, in my opinion).
spodek 8y ago
The story you link to describes interactions with two women. One ends with > "Just as we’re coming out of the bar, here comes Ann, running across Route 66 toward me. She puts her arm in mine, and says, “Come on, let’s go over to my place.”" the other with > "We went into the bar, and before I sat down, I said, “Listen, before I buy you a drink, I want to know one thing: Will you sleep with me tonight?” > “Yes.”" These interactions seem like voluntary, enthusiastic consent by rational adults. Maybe I'm seeing a contradiction where there is none, but if a woman who left and never had any need to see him again ran back to initiate physical interaction and invite him to her place, is it possible she knew more about the situation than you and didn't consider his behavior quite bad?
- xevb3k 8y ago
  We don’t even know if any of it was true at all, it could all be a work of fiction. But we know at least he considered it not much of a problem to call a woman a whore for not having sex with him because he bought her a sandwich. There are other allegations [1]. But that isn’t the central point really, the point is, why idolize someone who did some good work in one area and expect everything they do to be a work of genius? He was imperfect (or are you arguing otherwise?) his work in Biology is not very interesting... [1] https://galileospendulum.org/2014/07/13/the-problem-of-richard-feynman/ https://galileospendulum.org/2014/07/13/the-problem-of-richa...
hutzlibu 8y ago
I guess it must be the time he lived in, but it has some tragic comedy to see him completley fail to understand women and put their behavior in binary terms.

by xevb3k 8y ago

jonnybgood 8y ago

Individuals are not a complex mixture of good and bad. Almost nobody commits what might be considered a bad action just for the sake of being a bad person. We should not be so readily to apply black and white moral judgments on others.

xevb3k 8y ago
Good and Bad are loosely defined terms. I guess in this case it might be better to say “currrently socially unacceptable behavior which is considered selfish and harmful to others”. It seems self apparent that calling a woman a whore for not having sex in exchange for a sandwich is socially unacceptable and harmful behavior. But I would guess it’s probably possible to find data to support this.

icebraining 8y ago

Why do you feel this article is hero worship?

xevb3k 8y ago
Would this article be of general interest if it wasn’t about Feynman? (I don’t believe so) The work Feynman did in Biology that’s discussed here doesn’t seem to be particularly ground breaking, or interesting. It feels like it’s only being treated as such because Feynman did interesting work in other areas and is somewhat idolized for this.
- icebraining 8y ago
  Would this article be of general interest if it wasn’t about Feynman? Probably not, but I don't think being interested in an individual necessarily means idolizing them. In fact, sometimes the actions that we consider abhorrent is what makes them interesting. That's not the case here, but still, I think there's potential value in studying how a very good physicist approached a foreign subject matter.

mjfl 8y ago

I'm perfectly fine reading about Feynman's scientific pursuits in full knowledge of these anecdotes, because they are interesting and he was a brilliant man, and I don't see him as any more flawed than any other human. I especially couldn't care less about his thoughts relating to bars since they are by nature, back then and now, a warzone between nasty men and nasty women.

xevb3k 8y ago
But, I suppose the point is that work on Biology and Physics is as far removed as his work on Physics and picking up women in bars... The work discussed in the paper, is not particularly interesting in isolation.

chatmasta 8y ago

To play devils advocate and give him the benefit of the doubt... wasn’t the 1950’s a much different time in terms of respect for women? Reading that excerpt, I got the sense he was writing from the perspective of his past-self, in an almost self-deprecating way. He’s citing that incident of an extreme example of how literally he would follow instructions. By choosing it as an extreme example, he’s effectively acknowledging that the attitude was disrespectful / wrong. Granted I haven’t read the whole book, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there is some crucial context missing from those excerpts. Feynman did, after all, write the words himself.

xevb3k 8y ago
Perhaps my usage of the words “good and bad” implied a moral judgement. But, that’s not really my intention. What I’m saying, is that it’s unwise to idolize people because of their work in one area and then elevate (or more worryingly emulate) there work in other areas. Like his treatment of women, Feynman’s work in Biology is not really very interesting. It wouldn’t stand up on its own merits... the only reason to talk about it is if you treat Feynman as some kind of Hero/ideal. Feynman is not really a wonderful person to idolize (not that anybody is)...
icebraining 8y ago
Having read the book, I didn't get the impression he was criticizing himself. It read as just another story of an experiment, which how it seems he approached most of life (and which is what makes the book interesting, in my opinion).

spodek 8y ago

The story you link to describes interactions with two women. One ends with > "Just as we’re coming out of the bar, here comes Ann, running across Route 66 toward me. She puts her arm in mine, and says, “Come on, let’s go over to my place.”" the other with > "We went into the bar, and before I sat down, I said, “Listen, before I buy you a drink, I want to know one thing: Will you sleep with me tonight?” > “Yes.”" These interactions seem like voluntary, enthusiastic consent by rational adults. Maybe I'm seeing a contradiction where there is none, but if a woman who left and never had any need to see him again ran back to initiate physical interaction and invite him to her place, is it possible she knew more about the situation than you and didn't consider his behavior quite bad?

xevb3k 8y ago
We don’t even know if any of it was true at all, it could all be a work of fiction. But we know at least he considered it not much of a problem to call a woman a whore for not having sex with him because he bought her a sandwich. There are other allegations [1]. But that isn’t the central point really, the point is, why idolize someone who did some good work in one area and expect everything they do to be a work of genius? He was imperfect (or are you arguing otherwise?) his work in Biology is not very interesting... [1] https://galileospendulum.org/2014/07/13/the-problem-of-richard-feynman/ https://galileospendulum.org/2014/07/13/the-problem-of-richa...

hutzlibu 8y ago

I guess it must be the time he lived in, but it has some tragic comedy to see him completley fail to understand women and put their behavior in binary terms.