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Ask HN: Is Berlin (or Germany) a good place to start a startup in Europe?

18 points by mgliwka 8y ago

BjoernKW 8y ago
Usually, I'd have said yes. The local startup community is great. There's certainly not as much venture capital available as in Silicon Valley but first not every startup needs extensive funding and secondly the availability of VC has been improving in recent years, too. There's more red tape involved in setting up a company than there is in other countries but you only have to go through that once. However, GDPR currently creates a lot of uncertainty. Unfortunately, we'll have to wait how that works out in the end. Maybe, everyone involved will act reasonably and it'll prove to have been a storm in a teacup but it's really too soon to tell. So, on that grounds I can't really recommend Europe and Germany in particular right now.
- romanovcode 8y ago
  > However, GDPR currently creates a lot of uncertainty. How is it creating any uncertainty? Just make sure you use opt-in and be ready to scrap the data. Even if you are doing business in U.S. and want to have EU clients you have to take GDPR into account. How is it related to Germany or Berlin?
  - BjoernKW 8y ago
    The new regulation isn't just about opt-in and data deletion. Those are just the aspects consumers typically will be aware of. In addition to that a company also needs to: - have data processing agreements with every 3rd party that processes personal data for them - document technical and organisational measures with regard to privacy and security - have records of data processing activities While these are useful - GDPR or not - many aspects of those are left intentionally vague. In the past few months, data protection experts and company owners alike have been racking their brains as to how to implement the details entailed by those requirements. A government spokesperson only just recently has been quoted that although there's "some uncertainty" regarding the implementation of the new regulation the government doesn't intend to do anything about that right now but rather wants to wait and see how civil servants and courts are going to interpret the new law. In my opinion, that's a recipe for disaster waiting to happen. On top of that, Germany is particularly notorious for its 'liberal' regulation regarding cease-and-desist letters. There's a whole industry of shady lawyers that make a living by sending these out en masse to small companies that supposedly don't comply with regulations such as the equally notorious legal notice requirement for websites. They're perhaps already waiting with bated breath because GDPR opens a whole new 'market' for them. Many of my fellow entrepreneurs are worried about this right now and these are people who are both well-prepared and normally not easily spooked by bureaucracy.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - hluska 8y ago
      First, these regulations aren't new and if you've been remotely compliant with European privacy laws in the last decade, these aren't a massive step forward. With regards to these specific ideas you cite, any company that gives an iota of a shit about its users already does all of these things. I can't even call this a security fundamental, it's just basic respect. It's odd to me that, in the lead up to GDPR, so many people are making these exact same FUD-like arguments on the exact same kinds of questions, worded in remarkably similar English (down to agreeing that the law could be a good thing), on a variety of social sites. It makes me wonder if I'm watching a foreign power trying to undermine the EU. > In the past few months, data protection experts and company owners alike have been racking their brains as to how to implement the details entailed by those requirements. If this is true, they're not experts. Or rather, they're the kinds of experts who say they're experts on Twitter. Nothing in GDPR is particularly complicated.
      - BjoernKW 8y ago
        The problem with these laws is that while they're mainly targeted at large corporations - because frankly that's all regulators and politicians usually know or care about - small companies bear the brunt of complying with them right now. Many of the questions the owners of these companies are facing right now haven't even been considered by legislative bodies. These are questions such as: - How will I be able to operate my small company website in the future in a legally compliant manner? Some companies even consider turning off their websites completely and - of all things - only use a Facebook page in the future. Hence, ironically we might very will see GDPR actually benefitting companies like Facebook at the detriment of small companies that consequently won't have complete ownership of their content anymore. - How exactly does a privacy policy have to be worded so I don't get sued on day 1 (in some EU countries this is a very real problem already with legal notice requirements for websites)? - In which way will I still be able to store data for contacting my existing B2B customers (such as email addresses and phone numbers)? - Will I still be able to use anti-spam and security plugins for my website? These tools might store users' IP addresses, which in some jurisdictions are considered personal data. Dismissing these very real concerns by very real people as FUD or even suggesting a foreign power might be trying to undermine the EU is nothing but a preposterous conspiracy theory.
- dirktheman 8y ago
  GDPR isn't new, these laws have been in place since May 2016. Overall, they're pretty common sense, actually: don't share people's personal details without their permission, make sure your infrastructure is secure, have a plan that lists all parties that you share data with and have a protocol in case of a data breach. If you have an ethically sound company and comply with these rules you have nothing to worry about. Berlin is awesome, I'd choose it over Amsterdam (I'm Dutch) because of the insane rents. I've also heard good stories about Krakow and Bucharest.
  - BjoernKW 8y ago
    I agree that the intent behind that regulation is good and yes, as an ethically sound company you shouldn't have to worry about it. However, the implementation of these laws so far has been less than stellar, to say the least. There's a lot of room for interpretation and some rules are left vague - sometimes intentionally in order to avoid having to constantly update the regulation. Given the huge, potentially ruinous fines associated with GDPR you'd want laws to be as explicit and as specific as possible in order to avoid ambiguity and profiteering. What's more, different European countries have implemented GDPR differently - or not at all. Privacy (or the lack thereof) - in the EU of all places - shouldn't be a competitive advantage or a bargaining chip.
nik736 8y ago
No. Germany sucks for tech startups, because we have Merkel, she doesn't know anything about tech or even "the Internet". That means you can expect the government to put a lot of hurdles into anything you are trying to do.
- thorin 8y ago
  Ha ha, at least she has a scientific/maths background rather than the majority of politicians in UK/US who are lawyers, "economists", social scientists or in some cases celebrities.
xstartup 8y ago
Yea, it's great. We run adtech entirely out of Germany, we've found lots of talented folks but we operate in a village, not Berlin. But then also, we just need AWS, payment processing (stripe) and a bank account. 24/7 power, high-speed internet, hardware. Every service is dirt cheap compared to the US. Hookers are beautiful.
summermix 8y ago
Go where your customers are. Tax is comparable to most of western europe, salaries are higher than Poland, but way lower than SV.

18 points by mgliwka 8y ago

Usually, I'd have said yes. The local startup community is great. There's certainly not as much venture capital available as in Silicon Valley but first not every startup needs extensive funding and secondly the availability of VC has been improving in recent years, too. There's more red tape involved in setting up a company than there is in other countries but you only have to go through that once. However, GDPR currently creates a lot of uncertainty. Unfortunately, we'll have to wait how that works out in the end. Maybe, everyone involved will act reasonably and it'll prove to have been a storm in a teacup but it's really too soon to tell. So, on that grounds I can't really recommend Europe and Germany in particular right now.

romanovcode 8y ago
> However, GDPR currently creates a lot of uncertainty. How is it creating any uncertainty? Just make sure you use opt-in and be ready to scrap the data. Even if you are doing business in U.S. and want to have EU clients you have to take GDPR into account. How is it related to Germany or Berlin?
- BjoernKW 8y ago
  The new regulation isn't just about opt-in and data deletion. Those are just the aspects consumers typically will be aware of. In addition to that a company also needs to: - have data processing agreements with every 3rd party that processes personal data for them - document technical and organisational measures with regard to privacy and security - have records of data processing activities While these are useful - GDPR or not - many aspects of those are left intentionally vague. In the past few months, data protection experts and company owners alike have been racking their brains as to how to implement the details entailed by those requirements. A government spokesperson only just recently has been quoted that although there's "some uncertainty" regarding the implementation of the new regulation the government doesn't intend to do anything about that right now but rather wants to wait and see how civil servants and courts are going to interpret the new law. In my opinion, that's a recipe for disaster waiting to happen. On top of that, Germany is particularly notorious for its 'liberal' regulation regarding cease-and-desist letters. There's a whole industry of shady lawyers that make a living by sending these out en masse to small companies that supposedly don't comply with regulations such as the equally notorious legal notice requirement for websites. They're perhaps already waiting with bated breath because GDPR opens a whole new 'market' for them. Many of my fellow entrepreneurs are worried about this right now and these are people who are both well-prepared and normally not easily spooked by bureaucracy.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - hluska 8y ago
    First, these regulations aren't new and if you've been remotely compliant with European privacy laws in the last decade, these aren't a massive step forward. With regards to these specific ideas you cite, any company that gives an iota of a shit about its users already does all of these things. I can't even call this a security fundamental, it's just basic respect. It's odd to me that, in the lead up to GDPR, so many people are making these exact same FUD-like arguments on the exact same kinds of questions, worded in remarkably similar English (down to agreeing that the law could be a good thing), on a variety of social sites. It makes me wonder if I'm watching a foreign power trying to undermine the EU. > In the past few months, data protection experts and company owners alike have been racking their brains as to how to implement the details entailed by those requirements. If this is true, they're not experts. Or rather, they're the kinds of experts who say they're experts on Twitter. Nothing in GDPR is particularly complicated.
    - BjoernKW 8y ago
      The problem with these laws is that while they're mainly targeted at large corporations - because frankly that's all regulators and politicians usually know or care about - small companies bear the brunt of complying with them right now. Many of the questions the owners of these companies are facing right now haven't even been considered by legislative bodies. These are questions such as: - How will I be able to operate my small company website in the future in a legally compliant manner? Some companies even consider turning off their websites completely and - of all things - only use a Facebook page in the future. Hence, ironically we might very will see GDPR actually benefitting companies like Facebook at the detriment of small companies that consequently won't have complete ownership of their content anymore. - How exactly does a privacy policy have to be worded so I don't get sued on day 1 (in some EU countries this is a very real problem already with legal notice requirements for websites)? - In which way will I still be able to store data for contacting my existing B2B customers (such as email addresses and phone numbers)? - Will I still be able to use anti-spam and security plugins for my website? These tools might store users' IP addresses, which in some jurisdictions are considered personal data. Dismissing these very real concerns by very real people as FUD or even suggesting a foreign power might be trying to undermine the EU is nothing but a preposterous conspiracy theory.
dirktheman 8y ago
GDPR isn't new, these laws have been in place since May 2016. Overall, they're pretty common sense, actually: don't share people's personal details without their permission, make sure your infrastructure is secure, have a plan that lists all parties that you share data with and have a protocol in case of a data breach. If you have an ethically sound company and comply with these rules you have nothing to worry about. Berlin is awesome, I'd choose it over Amsterdam (I'm Dutch) because of the insane rents. I've also heard good stories about Krakow and Bucharest.
- BjoernKW 8y ago
  I agree that the intent behind that regulation is good and yes, as an ethically sound company you shouldn't have to worry about it. However, the implementation of these laws so far has been less than stellar, to say the least. There's a lot of room for interpretation and some rules are left vague - sometimes intentionally in order to avoid having to constantly update the regulation. Given the huge, potentially ruinous fines associated with GDPR you'd want laws to be as explicit and as specific as possible in order to avoid ambiguity and profiteering. What's more, different European countries have implemented GDPR differently - or not at all. Privacy (or the lack thereof) - in the EU of all places - shouldn't be a competitive advantage or a bargaining chip.

nik736 8y ago

No. Germany sucks for tech startups, because we have Merkel, she doesn't know anything about tech or even "the Internet". That means you can expect the government to put a lot of hurdles into anything you are trying to do.

thorin 8y ago
Ha ha, at least she has a scientific/maths background rather than the majority of politicians in UK/US who are lawyers, "economists", social scientists or in some cases celebrities.

xstartup 8y ago

Yea, it's great. We run adtech entirely out of Germany, we've found lots of talented folks but we operate in a village, not Berlin. But then also, we just need AWS, payment processing (stripe) and a bank account. 24/7 power, high-speed internet, hardware. Every service is dirt cheap compared to the US. Hookers are beautiful.

summermix 8y ago

Go where your customers are. Tax is comparable to most of western europe, salaries are higher than Poland, but way lower than SV.