3 ms·

Honestly, I think this is what it's like to be in an abusive relationship. You know he's abusive and yet you still stay in the relationship with him/her because

Honestly, I think this is what it's like to be in an abusive relationship. You know he's abusive and yet you still stay in the relationship with him/her because of all the good times and you delude yourself into thinking that's OK ... I think this gives a rarely glimpse into the rationalizations that happen in the mind of people that are in abusive relationships. From the outside it is trivial to see that the relationship dynamic is abusive but when you're in it ... suddenly it's OK even for one of the most renowned programmers of all time?

fsloth 8y ago
Having a relationship with the CEO of one of the most important companies in your field is a bit different from a plain frienship or sexual pairing. Just knowing the guy and engaging with him time to time dilutes the concept of an abusive relationship.
- Ari_Ugwu 8y ago
  I'm not so sure. Reading John Carmack's story (and others) it seems that Steve Jobs was able to convince people to enjoy the abuse and remember it with revery. That is a special kind of talent, but as others have mentioned it seems to attract and inspire the worst kind of corporate scum. The places where it doesn't seem like an abusive relationship it most certainly seems like the way a feudal tyrant would be behave.
  - fsloth 8y ago
    There is a difference between just being a douchebag, and actually sparring people. Psychological pressure is not just a bad thing. Too much of it, yes, and used for selfish reasons, yes - but - there is a net positive effect of making people defend their position and holding them accountable for their views. From what I've read Jobs combined the positive sparring attitude as well as negative I-must-have-my-catharsis-by-abusing-you as well. An intellectually keen sparring partner is something most people cherish. Given this sparring partner is Jobs there is a random reward/punishment element involved - is he going to cherish me or banish me? We all know this random reward system is the key to addictive interactions. Jobs was probably a keen intellectual sparring partner combined with an emotional game of chance. No wonder people revered him. I think the 'asshole steve jobs' reverence goes into the same pile with Gordon Gekko admiration. The problem with Jobs is he was a non-fictional character and people the lizard-people kind of types seem to completely misunderstand what was the good part in him as a leader.
    - Ari_Ugwu 8y ago
      I suppose I have a bias. I don't see the value in studying him, or in picking apart these postmortem campfire tales. Aside from (and I say this whimsically); to analyze and better understand the horror that we intelligent human beings are capable of allowing. I don't envy titans of industry any more than I envy celebrity for this reason. They seem to be our social experiments. We are lucky to have them and luckier still that fewer than most become real devils. Wish I had a point for this ramble. I just feel like there is a terrible _cost_ to being someone like Jobs, Musk, Tesla, etc. A cost that doesn't seem to be adequately explained to them _or_ the people who revere them. They are the milk producing cows of productivity that we happily take out and slaughter for meat once they burn out. That we seem to love them just makes it all the more strange.
kayoone 8y ago
A lot of people are in an abusive relationship with their employer or some important business partner i would imagine.
donquichotte 8y ago
"One time, [...] Steve [...] wanted me to do a keynote that happened to be scheduled on the same day as our wedding. With a big smile and full of charm, he suggested that we postpone it. We declined, but he kept pressing. Eventually my wife countered with a suggestion that if he really wanted “her” John so much, he should loan John Lassiter to her media company for a day of consulting. Steve went from full charm to ice cold really damn quick. I didn’t do that keynote." Quite Machiavellian, asking somebody to reschedule their wedding for a keynote and being completely unwilling to return the slightest favour!
- mywittyname 8y ago
  The dude got off on power plays. I wouldn't be surprised if the only reason Carmack was invited to that particular keynote was because it was happening on his wedding day.

fsloth 8y ago

Having a relationship with the CEO of one of the most important companies in your field is a bit different from a plain frienship or sexual pairing. Just knowing the guy and engaging with him time to time dilutes the concept of an abusive relationship.

Ari_Ugwu 8y ago
I'm not so sure. Reading John Carmack's story (and others) it seems that Steve Jobs was able to convince people to enjoy the abuse and remember it with revery. That is a special kind of talent, but as others have mentioned it seems to attract and inspire the worst kind of corporate scum. The places where it doesn't seem like an abusive relationship it most certainly seems like the way a feudal tyrant would be behave.
- fsloth 8y ago
  There is a difference between just being a douchebag, and actually sparring people. Psychological pressure is not just a bad thing. Too much of it, yes, and used for selfish reasons, yes - but - there is a net positive effect of making people defend their position and holding them accountable for their views. From what I've read Jobs combined the positive sparring attitude as well as negative I-must-have-my-catharsis-by-abusing-you as well. An intellectually keen sparring partner is something most people cherish. Given this sparring partner is Jobs there is a random reward/punishment element involved - is he going to cherish me or banish me? We all know this random reward system is the key to addictive interactions. Jobs was probably a keen intellectual sparring partner combined with an emotional game of chance. No wonder people revered him. I think the 'asshole steve jobs' reverence goes into the same pile with Gordon Gekko admiration. The problem with Jobs is he was a non-fictional character and people the lizard-people kind of types seem to completely misunderstand what was the good part in him as a leader.
  - Ari_Ugwu 8y ago
    I suppose I have a bias. I don't see the value in studying him, or in picking apart these postmortem campfire tales. Aside from (and I say this whimsically); to analyze and better understand the horror that we intelligent human beings are capable of allowing. I don't envy titans of industry any more than I envy celebrity for this reason. They seem to be our social experiments. We are lucky to have them and luckier still that fewer than most become real devils. Wish I had a point for this ramble. I just feel like there is a terrible _cost_ to being someone like Jobs, Musk, Tesla, etc. A cost that doesn't seem to be adequately explained to them _or_ the people who revere them. They are the milk producing cows of productivity that we happily take out and slaughter for meat once they burn out. That we seem to love them just makes it all the more strange.

kayoone 8y ago

A lot of people are in an abusive relationship with their employer or some important business partner i would imagine.

donquichotte 8y ago

"One time, [...] Steve [...] wanted me to do a keynote that happened to be scheduled on the same day as our wedding. With a big smile and full of charm, he suggested that we postpone it. We declined, but he kept pressing. Eventually my wife countered with a suggestion that if he really wanted “her” John so much, he should loan John Lassiter to her media company for a day of consulting. Steve went from full charm to ice cold really damn quick. I didn’t do that keynote." Quite Machiavellian, asking somebody to reschedule their wedding for a keynote and being completely unwilling to return the slightest favour!

mywittyname 8y ago
The dude got off on power plays. I wouldn't be surprised if the only reason Carmack was invited to that particular keynote was because it was happening on his wedding day.