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The key thing I'm arguing is that + * / etc. aren't special, beside some very superficial syntactic support. Your description of python's `` basically boils dow

• dragonwriter 8y ago
  > And unfortunately, the design decisions made for those operators don't extend to anything else written in the language. Yes, it applies to a number of built in functions and other operators beyond the mathematical ones. And there's no reason they can't to even non-built-ins. When you implement a method or function, you can adopt a similar special-method-based protocol for it's arguments, and define the appropriate special methods (monkey patching existing classes, if necessary) for the acceptable types. > If "strong typing" is to mean something about the language, it should it should apply to more than a handful of built-in operators. I suppose there is a difference between a language with a weakly typed core (where you cannot avoid the risks of weak typing without isolating the core), one with a strongly typed core that doesn't force user code to be strongly typed (where Python sits), and one that forced strong typing (which probably had to be static, as well).
  • zenhack 8y ago
    > I suppose there is a difference between a language with a weakly typed core (where you cannot avoid the risks of weak typing without isolating the core), one with a strongly typed core that doesn't force user code to be strongly typed (where Python sits), and one that forced strong typing (which probably had to be static, as well). Yeah, fwiw I do think that the distinction being made with javascript vs. python is meaningful, it just isn't really about the language per se, but rather the design of "built-in" functions, which often doen't need to be built in as far as their semantics are concerned. In my comment to the sibling, reiterate the reference to julia/racket -- you could have a language feature that does dynamic checks at the call site. IIRC, Haskell's GHC has a flag to basically compile down any time errors to exceptions (I don't know that anybody uses it though).
• joshuamorton 8y ago
  >The key thing I'm arguing is that + * / etc. aren't special, We're in more or less full agreement as to this. Operator overloading is a syntactic choice that is totally independent of weak or strong typing. def multiply(l, r): if hasattr(l, '__mul__'): return l.__mul__(r) else: raise TypeError(...) No, this is completely different than how python handles things. In a really important way. Its def multiply(l, r): try: return l.__mul__(r) except AttributeError, TypeError: return r.__rmul__(l) This doesn't look that different, but it absolutely is hugely different than the example you provide. Consider two types, `int` and `MyCustomType`. `int` has no concept of `MyCustomType`, given that I just came up with `MyCustomType`, and `int` has been a part of the standard library for over a decade. If multiply were implemented as you suggest, we could do `MyCustomType * int` and it would succeed, but `int * MyCustomType` would fail. This again, because `MyCustomType` knows how to deal with an `int`, but the reverse isn't true, so if you only rely on the lhs implementation, you get weirdness. As a language designer you have a few options for handling the `int * MyCustomType` case. 1. You have the language semantics say "when your type is multiplied by, we implicitly convert it to something compatible with multiplication, first by calling toString, then by taking the length of the resulting string. We also do the same to the rhs to make sure it can multiply. In other words, `multiply` is def multiply(l, r): return len(str(l)).__mul__(len(str(r))) This is weak typing. Note that while `* ` will always work (because everything gets a toString method (or valuOf)), the library writer has very little control over what happens. 2. You defer to each object. Each object says "this is what I can do". If either object believes itself to be compatible with the other object, great! If not, you raise some sort of error. This can either be done via capabilities/interfaces (which gets you duck typing), or via strict inheritance/class names (which python does in the standard library perhaps more than it should). Multiply in python can't work the way you suggest because multiply is both more powerful and less broken than your suggestion. What you suggest cannot handle the example of MyCustomType unless multiply already understands how to deal with something that emulates what I want MyCustomType to do. If, for example, multiply were implemented the way you suggest, something like def multiply(l, r): if isinstance(l, int) and isinstance(r, Iterable): return [x for x in r for y in range(l)] that works well and good, until I define a type `ndarray`, which is absolutely an iterable, but for which I actually want multiply to broadcast. The language doesn't know that, so with weak typing I end up getting out a much longer list. But with strong typing, I can control how things work. So to be very clear, I think if you believe that `multiply` could have been implemented the way you believe, you have a core misunderstanding about how python works, because python absolutely could not work the way you describe. >And unfortunately, the design decisions made for those operators don't extend to anything else written in the language. By default, if I define that I intend to only make sense to call on with an argument of requests.Session, and somebody (possibly me) passes it an etree.xml.ElementTree.Element, Python will happily chug along, with no way of knowing that this makes no god damn sense, until something goes wrong who knows where. Right, and as strong typing suggests as soon as you attempt to treat an Element like a Session, you'll get an error (either type or Attribute, depending). The language won't attempt to make things work, or try to hold over for a while by for example make attribute access return `undefined` instead of blowing up as soon as something goes wrong. The difference is that strong typing makes the error happen as soon as you misuse an object (but not before, because that's not possible). Weak typing delays that as long as possible. Strong typing works the same way with any function. `len` is a good example. The basis of strong vs. weak typing is essentially that the language doesn't allow things that don't intend to comply with (implicit or explicit) interfaces comply with them in unexpected ways. You can always make something that intends to comply with an interface badly. But if I make something, in a strong language, you can't make it behave in ways that it "shouldn't". Another way of putting this might be simply that weak(er) languages have Object implement a number of interfaces (such as Comparable, Number, String, Iterable, which are all implemented, badly, by everything in js), whereas stronger languages do not (in python, object implements only String and Hashable). Further, stronger languages have more interfaces. For example, python separates "number" from "multipliable" in a way that JS does not. But "strong" typing is totally and completely independent of "static" typing. Strong vs. weak is totally and completely independent of static vs. dynamic. Many people consider C to be a statically typed, but weakly typed language, because you can do things like cast a string to a struct willy nilly. You can't do that in python or Java. And note that what this means is that you can take an existing object and cast it to be something totally unlike what it should be. I can give you "Hello world" and you can pass that to a function that expects an struct{int, int, int}[4]. Something will happen. Similarly, in js you can pass a string into a function that expects an int, and something will happen. You try that in Python and you'll get a type error. You try that in Java, even if you do bad evil things like cast everything up to object so that it compiles, and you'll get runtime errors. That's the difference.