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To be completely honest, I also felt a lot of frustration towards recruiters when I first started working on Key Values. (It might be one of the reasons why I b

To be completely honest, I also felt a lot of frustration towards recruiters when I first started working on Key Values. (It might be one of the reasons why I built it...) In the last year though, I've met a wide variety of people with a wide variety of responsibilities, approaches, and backgrounds, yet they all share the same job title. There are certainly awful recruiters out there, but there are also some really fantastic ones! (Just like how there are both awful and fantastic devs out there.) I've gotten to see both sides of job searching/hiring and it has been eye opening. Both sides have similar complaints of the other, which is why the process looks so darn similar to dating. My guess is that founders, CTOs, and recruiters would all probably make a list similar to yours: - Actually try to get to know and understand our company - Don't use fill-in templates - Have some actual knowledge of our industry/product - Don't focus on positions you worked on 10 years ago during college - Don't be greedy

learc83 8y ago
>Don't be greedy That is hilarious. If the representative of a multi-billion dollar company (or a startup trying to become a multi-billion dollar company) every said something like that to me I'd probably laugh and walk out.
- lynnetye 8y ago
  I don't think many candidates tell the recruiter they're working with to be less greedy, nor do many employers tell candidates this. My point is that there's an extremely wide range of scenarios that both parties see, and most people on one side of it have a hard time considering the perspective of the other. There are plenty of young software engineers who hear about first-year salaries at Google and expect similar comp packages from startups. (Are they being too greedy? Meh, they're just misinformed or need to take some time to recalibrate their expectations.) There are also plenty of companies guilty of the same thing. Their expectations are too high as they turn away great candidates because they don't have a CS degree from a top school or have an impressive track record of open source contributions. The OP listed "don't be greedy," which sounds familiar to me. It's easy to have a few bad experiences and then draw a blanket conclusion that every tech company is trying to squeeze me. My point is only that it's frustrating on both sides, and whether you're an applicant or a hiring manager, understanding what the process feels like to the other party will make the process that much easier for you.
  - ummonk 8y ago
    >There are plenty of young software engineers who hear about first-year salaries at Google and expect similar comp packages from startups. (Are they being too greedy? Meh, they're just misinformed or need to take some time to recalibrate their expectations.) If they're choosing between working at a company like Google or that startup, it's not greedy to expect competitive compensation.
    - repolfx 8y ago
      I think it was implied by context that they weren't. Obviously if you need advice of "don't be greedy" then such a person isn't simultaneously weighing up an offer from the top of Google's pay tier, otherwise that wouldn't be greed, it'd just be realism.
      - learc83 8y ago
        I don't think that was implied by the context at all. >that wouldn't be greed, it'd just be realism. I think that's the point. Startups routinely want to convince people to work for them for less than established companies. They often talk about wanting to hire people who care about solving the problems they are working more than money. When someone is being realistic by pointing out that they can make more money elsewhere, they say they are just "being greedy."
        repolfx 8y ago
        When someone is being realistic by pointing out that they can make more money elsewhere, they say they are just "being greedy." You're assuming the big paying tech firms will hire any programmer who applies to any startup. They won't.
        learc83 8y ago
        I'm not assuming that all "by pointing out that they can make more money elsewhere". In this case I'm talking about someone who can make more money elsewhere. I've often heard variations on "don't be greedy" from startups and recruiters when I was working as a consultant. I'd tell them "We'll I'm making X now, so you're going to need to at least meet that in total comp before I'll consider it." The response is almost always something like "We're interested in programmers who are really passionate about Y and aren't primarily salary driven, so we only pay X/2 here."
itronitron 8y ago
It is basically impossible to get enough information on a company in order to know and understand it prior to working there. Most company web sites provide zero information on org charts, work processes, communication flows, etc. It is very unusual for a company to provide any information during on-site interviews of how the company actually works. And any information that is given usually conflicts with other information provided later by another employee :)

learc83 8y ago

>Don't be greedy That is hilarious. If the representative of a multi-billion dollar company (or a startup trying to become a multi-billion dollar company) every said something like that to me I'd probably laugh and walk out.

lynnetye 8y ago
I don't think many candidates tell the recruiter they're working with to be less greedy, nor do many employers tell candidates this. My point is that there's an extremely wide range of scenarios that both parties see, and most people on one side of it have a hard time considering the perspective of the other. There are plenty of young software engineers who hear about first-year salaries at Google and expect similar comp packages from startups. (Are they being too greedy? Meh, they're just misinformed or need to take some time to recalibrate their expectations.) There are also plenty of companies guilty of the same thing. Their expectations are too high as they turn away great candidates because they don't have a CS degree from a top school or have an impressive track record of open source contributions. The OP listed "don't be greedy," which sounds familiar to me. It's easy to have a few bad experiences and then draw a blanket conclusion that every tech company is trying to squeeze me. My point is only that it's frustrating on both sides, and whether you're an applicant or a hiring manager, understanding what the process feels like to the other party will make the process that much easier for you.
- ummonk 8y ago
  >There are plenty of young software engineers who hear about first-year salaries at Google and expect similar comp packages from startups. (Are they being too greedy? Meh, they're just misinformed or need to take some time to recalibrate their expectations.) If they're choosing between working at a company like Google or that startup, it's not greedy to expect competitive compensation.
  - repolfx 8y ago
    I think it was implied by context that they weren't. Obviously if you need advice of "don't be greedy" then such a person isn't simultaneously weighing up an offer from the top of Google's pay tier, otherwise that wouldn't be greed, it'd just be realism.
    - learc83 8y ago
      I don't think that was implied by the context at all. >that wouldn't be greed, it'd just be realism. I think that's the point. Startups routinely want to convince people to work for them for less than established companies. They often talk about wanting to hire people who care about solving the problems they are working more than money. When someone is being realistic by pointing out that they can make more money elsewhere, they say they are just "being greedy."
      - repolfx 8y ago
        When someone is being realistic by pointing out that they can make more money elsewhere, they say they are just "being greedy." You're assuming the big paying tech firms will hire any programmer who applies to any startup. They won't.
        learc83 8y ago
        I'm not assuming that all "by pointing out that they can make more money elsewhere". In this case I'm talking about someone who can make more money elsewhere. I've often heard variations on "don't be greedy" from startups and recruiters when I was working as a consultant. I'd tell them "We'll I'm making X now, so you're going to need to at least meet that in total comp before I'll consider it." The response is almost always something like "We're interested in programmers who are really passionate about Y and aren't primarily salary driven, so we only pay X/2 here."

itronitron 8y ago

It is basically impossible to get enough information on a company in order to know and understand it prior to working there. Most company web sites provide zero information on org charts, work processes, communication flows, etc. It is very unusual for a company to provide any information during on-site interviews of how the company actually works. And any information that is given usually conflicts with other information provided later by another employee :)