4 ms·

I'm surprised none of them mentioned the abominable "culture match". I've heard repeated complaints that it's much more important to be a brogrammer who likes c

by nikanj 8y ago

I'm surprised none of them mentioned the abominable "culture match". I've heard repeated complaints that it's much more important to be a brogrammer who likes craft beers, than it is to be any good at the actual programming.

sparrish 8y ago
They did. Sarah Arcoleo - "It’s important to me and our whole team that we are bringing on new team members who align to our company culture and values."
chatmasta 8y ago
I’ve been consulting the past year and a half. Recently I decided to contact some companies just to see what the landscape was like, and if I could maybe find an interesting opportunity that also paid well. On one of the first calls I had, the recruiter heavily implied that I was “not a culture fit” after I explained that I’m only interested in a job if it pays more than I currently make consulting (this particular job paid about half that). I’m not socially inept, I know how to speak politely and it was definitely polite. I mentioned it on the first call because I didn’t want to waste anyone’s time (mine included) interviewing for a job that I wouldn’t take. The HR lady seemed completely taken aback and offended... says “we’re looking for people passionate about the problems we’re solving, even if it means taking a pay cut.” Get the f- out of here with that BS. That really grinds my gears. The company is allowed to be profit seeking but the employees are not? No thanks. I’ll stick with consulting... I like having multiple clients over one employer. I like that there are no “interviews,” just my own confidence and sales skills to pitch proposals to clients. I like the respect that clients show me that no employer ever has. I like the autonomy, the lifestyle. And yes I like getting paid more than I would at a local job. There’s nothing wrong with that.
- nwsm 8y ago
  "I like having multiple clients over one employer. I like that there are no “interviews,” just my own confidence and sales skills to pitch proposals to clients. I like the autonomy, the lifestyle." I agree the comments on salary are ridiculous, but the last paragraph implies heavily that you are not actually a "good culture fit" for a non-consulting job.
  - chatmasta 8y ago
    Yeah, no disagreement there. Worth noting though, I didn’t mention anything about lifestyle / autonomy on the call. And if I did take a job I would adjust myself for that aspect of it. That’s one of the reasons why the pay needs to be good.
- mkirklions 8y ago
  >“we’re looking for people passionate about the problems we’re solving, even if it means taking a pay cut.” Yep, thats a one way ticket to not having quality employees. If I really want to solve those problems, I'm probably only going to trust myself to solve it.
- john_moscow 8y ago
  I think it's actually kinda straight-forward: * If you have sales/negotiation skills, but no technical skills, you do sales/HR/whatnot. * If you have both sales/negotiation AND technical skills, you do consulting or start your own business. * If you have good technical skills, but poor negotiation skills, you go work as a software developer. So yeah, an unwritten requirement for many technical positions is having poor negotiation skills. And no recruiter will obviously tell you outright that "you know, we're just looking for a sucker to take a crappy deal and you don't look like one, so move on", so instead they will use the politically correct "culture fit" to make themselves feel better.
  - oceanghost 8y ago
    There's a lot of wisdom here. Regarding negotiation for engineers-- a few years back, I had been happily employed at a company for ten years. The CEO of some company calls me up and says I'd be PERFECT for a job opening he has. He says its C2H for 6 months to make sure I'm a good "culture fit". I politely decline, and he was incensed. I said, "Why in gods name would I leave a position I've been in for 10 years for a contract position?"
  - itronitron 8y ago
    Yeah, if you're actually going to deposit your paychecks then clearly you aren't passionate enough about the work.
- gaius 8y ago
  “we’re looking for people passionate about the problems we’re solving, even if it means taking a pay cut.” We want people smart enough to program but not smart enough to think about compensation, in other words. I think there was a Dilbert about that!
- paulddraper 8y ago
  > if it pays more than I currently make consultin FYI, you can always make more as a consultant if you don't count cost of medical care, taxes, etc.
lynnetye 8y ago
It's possible this is because of the context. All of these recruiters/talent managers are from companies who have engineering profiles on Key Values. Their team has already spent a lot of time articulating what their engineering values are with the hope of connecting with engineers who share them.
mitchty 8y ago
I am sooo glad I've not encountered this. When I go drinking I tend to accumulate drinking buddies that are entirely outside of programming. Lawyers, skater bros, confectioners, people that know way too much about the chemistry of post it notes (true story) I love tech and all, but, when I'm out drinking its more fun asking people what they do and just getting out of the stupid tech scene in general. Maybe I'm the weird one, I have met a couple programmers at the bar too, but its just not as fun as meeting someone whose life revolves around making chocolate for a living as an example. If that makes me a poor cultural match, good. I can't be that insular. I don't want to join a cult when I join a job.
- EADGBE 8y ago
  Agreed, I don't find myself wanting to be around people like that outside of work. They're... kinda boring. I always laugh when a recruiter reaches out looking for people and asking if I know of anyone. LOL! No, all the ones I know I currently work with, and I try not to know them past that. > I don't want to join a cult when I join a job. My feelings precisely.
  - bitwize 8y ago
    > I always laugh when a recruiter reaches out looking for people and asking if I know of anyone. LOL! No, all the ones I know I currently work with, and I try not to know them past that. I love how they get snippy when you tell them you don't know anyone. "Well! I guess EVERYONE you know already has a job!"

by nikanj 8y ago

sparrish 8y ago

They did. Sarah Arcoleo - "It’s important to me and our whole team that we are bringing on new team members who align to our company culture and values."

chatmasta 8y ago

I’ve been consulting the past year and a half. Recently I decided to contact some companies just to see what the landscape was like, and if I could maybe find an interesting opportunity that also paid well. On one of the first calls I had, the recruiter heavily implied that I was “not a culture fit” after I explained that I’m only interested in a job if it pays more than I currently make consulting (this particular job paid about half that). I’m not socially inept, I know how to speak politely and it was definitely polite. I mentioned it on the first call because I didn’t want to waste anyone’s time (mine included) interviewing for a job that I wouldn’t take. The HR lady seemed completely taken aback and offended... says “we’re looking for people passionate about the problems we’re solving, even if it means taking a pay cut.” Get the f- out of here with that BS. That really grinds my gears. The company is allowed to be profit seeking but the employees are not? No thanks. I’ll stick with consulting... I like having multiple clients over one employer. I like that there are no “interviews,” just my own confidence and sales skills to pitch proposals to clients. I like the respect that clients show me that no employer ever has. I like the autonomy, the lifestyle. And yes I like getting paid more than I would at a local job. There’s nothing wrong with that.

nwsm 8y ago
"I like having multiple clients over one employer. I like that there are no “interviews,” just my own confidence and sales skills to pitch proposals to clients. I like the autonomy, the lifestyle." I agree the comments on salary are ridiculous, but the last paragraph implies heavily that you are not actually a "good culture fit" for a non-consulting job.
- chatmasta 8y ago
  Yeah, no disagreement there. Worth noting though, I didn’t mention anything about lifestyle / autonomy on the call. And if I did take a job I would adjust myself for that aspect of it. That’s one of the reasons why the pay needs to be good.
mkirklions 8y ago
>“we’re looking for people passionate about the problems we’re solving, even if it means taking a pay cut.” Yep, thats a one way ticket to not having quality employees. If I really want to solve those problems, I'm probably only going to trust myself to solve it.
john_moscow 8y ago
I think it's actually kinda straight-forward: * If you have sales/negotiation skills, but no technical skills, you do sales/HR/whatnot. * If you have both sales/negotiation AND technical skills, you do consulting or start your own business. * If you have good technical skills, but poor negotiation skills, you go work as a software developer. So yeah, an unwritten requirement for many technical positions is having poor negotiation skills. And no recruiter will obviously tell you outright that "you know, we're just looking for a sucker to take a crappy deal and you don't look like one, so move on", so instead they will use the politically correct "culture fit" to make themselves feel better.
- oceanghost 8y ago
  There's a lot of wisdom here. Regarding negotiation for engineers-- a few years back, I had been happily employed at a company for ten years. The CEO of some company calls me up and says I'd be PERFECT for a job opening he has. He says its C2H for 6 months to make sure I'm a good "culture fit". I politely decline, and he was incensed. I said, "Why in gods name would I leave a position I've been in for 10 years for a contract position?"
- itronitron 8y ago
  Yeah, if you're actually going to deposit your paychecks then clearly you aren't passionate enough about the work.
gaius 8y ago
“we’re looking for people passionate about the problems we’re solving, even if it means taking a pay cut.” We want people smart enough to program but not smart enough to think about compensation, in other words. I think there was a Dilbert about that!
paulddraper 8y ago
> if it pays more than I currently make consultin FYI, you can always make more as a consultant if you don't count cost of medical care, taxes, etc.

lynnetye 8y ago

It's possible this is because of the context. All of these recruiters/talent managers are from companies who have engineering profiles on Key Values. Their team has already spent a lot of time articulating what their engineering values are with the hope of connecting with engineers who share them.

mitchty 8y ago

I am sooo glad I've not encountered this. When I go drinking I tend to accumulate drinking buddies that are entirely outside of programming. Lawyers, skater bros, confectioners, people that know way too much about the chemistry of post it notes (true story) I love tech and all, but, when I'm out drinking its more fun asking people what they do and just getting out of the stupid tech scene in general. Maybe I'm the weird one, I have met a couple programmers at the bar too, but its just not as fun as meeting someone whose life revolves around making chocolate for a living as an example. If that makes me a poor cultural match, good. I can't be that insular. I don't want to join a cult when I join a job.

EADGBE 8y ago
Agreed, I don't find myself wanting to be around people like that outside of work. They're... kinda boring. I always laugh when a recruiter reaches out looking for people and asking if I know of anyone. LOL! No, all the ones I know I currently work with, and I try not to know them past that. > I don't want to join a cult when I join a job. My feelings precisely.
- bitwize 8y ago
  > I always laugh when a recruiter reaches out looking for people and asking if I know of anyone. LOL! No, all the ones I know I currently work with, and I try not to know them past that. I love how they get snippy when you tell them you don't know anyone. "Well! I guess EVERYONE you know already has a job!"