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Disclosure: im a "blue collar" automotive repair tech. I cant understand why anyone would put up with a lot of this, but I can guess its probably some smug "wh

Disclosure: im a "blue collar" automotive repair tech. I cant understand why anyone would put up with a lot of this, but I can guess its probably some smug "white collar" manager who thinks production or revenue are down because people who didnt go to $college are inherently lazier than he is. Putting the screws on the workers is always the easiest way to compensate for bad decisions in the leadership change. I worked in an old shop once that did an oil and air service for $59.99. We got a ton of business from a local rental car place because their service pool was under provisioned after their managers expanded the fleet. Now typically when working on simple stuff like a packaged deal, I inspect other stuff. Your brakes/brake lines and any leaks i might spot that seem dangerous. Those get logged in your invoice with a $0.00 fee. Typically the rental place would send the vehicle back for the additional service and a nice thank you box of donuts for the crew. Management started seeing these 0.00 fees and assumed we were giving away free service because they didnt take the time to train on the computer system we all have to use. So they dismantled the service deal and started charging individually for everything, driving the cost up to close to $100. they also eliminated the inspection line items. We lost the rental place, and we had to spend 20 minutes hand writing issues we noticed on greasy post-its, which makes the shop look cheap. I eventually quit the place when they started putting cameras in the garage bays "for safety" and changed our normal punch clock system to a fingerprint system...not because i dont like biometrics, but because they dont work when your hands are coated in 30 cars worth of grease and fluid. When the timeclocks broke down, we were always accused of sabotage.

LeifCarrotson 8y ago
> thinks production or revenue are down because people who didnt go to $college are inherently lazier than he is. "Than he is" is unnecessary: He may think himself lazy, even to a point of pride when he thinks of the clever stuff he gets away with. There are fundamentally two schools of thought when it comes to management: 1. People are inherently lazy, and work only to satisfy their needs - enjoying their job is at best a distant second priority. The best way to get things done is to drive them harder with closer monitoring, punishment for failures, and threats to their ability to satisfy their basic needs. 2. People are inherently creative, and work to satisfy their desire to create - your job as an employer/manager is to help them not have to worry about lower needs on Maslow's pyramid. The best way to get things done is to give them them a vision, opportinities, targets, and tools to be productive. Just quit a job after 5 years slaving under the former type of manager, and my life has never been better since I began working under the second.
- jmcunningham 8y ago
  I think those 2 schools of thought exist, because those 2 types of employees exist. I've been a dev for 20 years now, and I've definitely had coworkers that fall into both those categories you mention. I'm new-ish to management now, but I'm working under the (hopeful/optimistic) assumption that most people fall in the latter category. But I need to find a style that can handle both types of employees.
  - cimmanom 8y ago
    To some degree, both categories can also co-exist in the same person. Some people are self-motivated when crunching numbers on spreadsheets because they find it satisfying but would need to be dragged kicking and screaming to provide phone support -- and vice-versa. And there are probably some jobs that it's more common to be self-motivated for than others. Garbage collection? Data entry?
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Even development. I hate having to deal with project management software, detailed estimations, estimating points, etc. I know some of the drudgery of process is necessary, I just don't like it.
      - rjbwork 8y ago
        I don't mind the software. The estimates are asinine though.
    - svnsets 8y ago
      I'd say both exist in every person. I'm a software engineer with some design background. I got into programming because after trying to get into design, I found it wasn't my thing, but I've had many employers that wanted me to fill in the gaps the design team left open which I hated doing. It comes down to learning what motivates each employee individually. Companies spend so much money on surveillance and productivity monitoring, but don't spend much if anything on taking inventory of employee skills and strengths.
tetha 8y ago
I was thinking up a reply and now you're confirming it before I even write it. That's amazing. I tend to be critical during interviews and demanding during work... but I'm always ready to forward some trust towards the guys on my team. More often than not, I end up assuming "There's probably a good reason for that decision". And so far, it has paid off. If I trust people to make good decisions, people make even better decisions than I could ask for. Many, many people want to do a good job I've found. Over 20 - 30 people I've had on teams, there has been 1 guy who stretched that trust and he was a known troublemaker people put on my team as a test. As a result, I gave them a clean and solid case to fire that guy.
ravenstine 8y ago
Good for you. One of the most important lessons I've learned in life is knowing when to quit and having the gumption to leave unacceptable situations. The struggle of finding a new job, stressful it may be, is still a better feeling than being treated like a crap-piece. Life's too short for the assumed-guilty workplace, or to work for hack managers. I think a lot of people grow up being told to "never quit", so they don't prepare for the day when they should quit. Thus, they don't sock away f-u money and they take on too many responsibilities too early in life.
- touristtam 8y ago
  Not only this but you don't get keep a career in the same company automatically. Changing Job is the norm and to reflect this company are considering you as a resource: interchangeable with someone else having the same 'qualification'.
mikepurvis 8y ago
Harper's had a terrific piece on workplace monitoring a few years ago: https://harpers.org/archive/2015/03/the-spy-who-fired-me/?single=1 https://harpers.org/archive/2015/03/the-spy-who-fired-me/?si... One of the common themes is the unintended consequences. For example, UPS drivers who get scolded because the truck records that it was sometimes in motion without them wearing their seat belt. Regardless of the circumstances before the scolding (there are lots of situations where it would be reasonable to make such a judgment call, esp on private property like a parking lot), afterward they would simply clip the seatbelt empty and sit on top of it. Then the truck registers 100% seatbelt compliance and they are far less safe since they're never wearing it.
- sp527 8y ago
  It's weird to call these "unintended consequences." What we know about human behavior definitively indicates that having a sense of autonomy and control is essential to motivation/performance. It's also obvious that stress increases under the knowledge that someone is monitoring you. Hell even the ancient Greeks probably understood the perils of micromanagement... In the case of readily measurable output in blue-collar work, it seems obvious that a component of compensation should scale proportionate to productivity, so that you're rewarding high performers instead of implicitly penalizing everyone uniformly. And then you just fire (obvious) chronic underperformers, so that you still gain the advantages from there being a fear of repercussions.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  I think it's not so much unintended consequences as it is perverse incentives. It's the same as measuring a programmers output by Lines of Code, you're just going to get a heaping mass of code that could be done in 1/10th of the lines.
  - dfsgh 8y ago
    agreed I worked as a consultant for a company that had exactly that problem. They based promotions based on lines of working code. Result: You would see huge bloobs of autogenerated code getting shipped that could have been done with about 5% of that code, and then later get discarded by security as a security risk. Even after my consulting(I was hired to fine our how mouch of there code is rly a security risk like there industry partners claim) they did not change there practice for 3 Years. Im surprised the Company even survived, but it did and after 3 Years a big restructering basicly fired all of IT management.
breakbread 8y ago
Disclosure: I'm what most would consider "white collar". Also , this is tangential to your post. One of my closest friends has been an automotive tech in the dealership world for the past 12 or so years and has mastertech certifications for 2 manufacturers. I never cease to be amazed at how fucked that industry/line of work can be, even for someone who is firmly at the top of their game. The incentive structure seems totally out of whack to me, such that it's no wonder that people assume the worst when they are faced with having to take their vehicle in for service.
Balgair 8y ago
It's funny, every time a post about hiring practices comes up, there are a million different and contrasting comments about how to hire. It's chaos. Then an article and a comment like this come along. Honestly, there are a lot of businesses out there that are just plain run by idiots and/or crazy people. It feels like the majority are, to me. So, next time you feel like the only sane person in the room/interview/review, you really should consider the possibility that you are correct, and not dismiss that thought out of hand.
- svnsets 8y ago
  next time you feel like the only sane person in the room/interview/review, you really should consider the possibility that you are correct I've been amazed by how often this is true, especially in the world of "startup CULTure". When I was naive and fresh out of college, I assumed that people who made it into management or into executive leadership did so because they knew what they were doing. That couldn't be farther from the case. There are so many companies run by people who are borderline insane, and so many people who will just blindly follow them through their nightmare. In contrast, there are great people and companies to work for if you put in the effort to find them. I will say that the whole tech recruitment industry has made that harder though as you have people who are financially incentivized to get you hired and tell you whatever bullshit you want to hear even if they know you will be miserable in that position and that 90% of that information is false.
  - mmt 8y ago
    > In contrast, there are great people and companies to work for if you put in the effort to find them Is that true, though? That is, is merely putting the effort in enough? I'd expect there's an element of luck/timing, especially with startups, since funding is so limited.
hinkley 8y ago
I worked as a bike mechanic which is a small subset of all of the goo you guys get on your hands and I remember the process for getting my hands clean enough to go to the bathroom took almost a minute. I think washing your hands thoroughly before clocking out might have forced that issue, but it sounds more like the last straw for you. Clearly they killed the goose when they unbundled that service contract. It's too bad some of you didn't walk and find a different shop to offer the same deal.
- magduf 8y ago
  As an amateur mechanic (mostly cars), I've found wearing medical gloves (esp. the more expensive nitrile ones) helps a lot with keeping my hands clean. They tear open on sharp stuff of course, so you'll probably have to replace them several times, but it's better than not wearing anything, and gives you more tactile sensation than the thicker "mechanic's gloves".
  - test1235 8y ago
    I've found nitrile to be pretty durable - they're meant for protecting against needles and scalpels and things, so I'm surprised they're tearing on you?
    - magduf 8y ago
      They are durable, very durable, compared to vinyl and latex. But they're not some kind of exotic metamaterial; eventually something will tear them open, and car internals can be rough environments. The much-thicker mechanics' gloves are more durable for a lot of that stuff, but they really limit you because of their thickness.
profalseidol 8y ago
> I cant understand why anyone would put up with a lot of this This has been ask throughout the history. And we have come a long way since we were duped that Kings, Queens and Popes have "Divine Authority". However, today, we have been duped again. And just like in the past, people didn't readily realize it. It will take effort and probably blood. Here's one good relatively recent example when people were finally fed up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair
sedachv 8y ago
> I cant understand why anyone would put up with a lot of this, but I can guess its probably some smug "white collar" manager who thinks production or revenue are down because people who didnt go to $college are inherently lazier than he is. That is literally exactly what happens, and how too many people in management think. David Noble's Forces of Production is about machine tool shops in the 1960s and 1970s, and is full of accounts just like yours (with details right down to management accusing workers of sabotage), with sources from both the worker and management sides.
- dx034 8y ago
  To me it more sounds like a manager who can't reach the goals. He was probably hired to improve profitability or at least keep it stable. If revenues fall he'll try to get them back up and this appears to be a quick fix. I don't think there's a management technique behind it, just cluelessness as to what would actually help.
xivzgrev 8y ago
clearly "management" lost sight of the big picture. Why would you charge for finding new leads? Let us inspect the car for free, and if we find something that needs repair, then hey we can take care of that (for a fee). Even better, the customer feels like they got something for free - someone is caring enough to look at my car for free, looking for dangerous shit that I'm not aware of. I suppose you could apply the value of the diagnostic to the eventual repair, but I'd feel trapped with that kind of arrangement and prefer not to enter it.

LeifCarrotson 8y ago

> thinks production or revenue are down because people who didnt go to $college are inherently lazier than he is. "Than he is" is unnecessary: He may think himself lazy, even to a point of pride when he thinks of the clever stuff he gets away with. There are fundamentally two schools of thought when it comes to management: 1. People are inherently lazy, and work only to satisfy their needs - enjoying their job is at best a distant second priority. The best way to get things done is to drive them harder with closer monitoring, punishment for failures, and threats to their ability to satisfy their basic needs. 2. People are inherently creative, and work to satisfy their desire to create - your job as an employer/manager is to help them not have to worry about lower needs on Maslow's pyramid. The best way to get things done is to give them them a vision, opportinities, targets, and tools to be productive. Just quit a job after 5 years slaving under the former type of manager, and my life has never been better since I began working under the second.

jmcunningham 8y ago
I think those 2 schools of thought exist, because those 2 types of employees exist. I've been a dev for 20 years now, and I've definitely had coworkers that fall into both those categories you mention. I'm new-ish to management now, but I'm working under the (hopeful/optimistic) assumption that most people fall in the latter category. But I need to find a style that can handle both types of employees.
- cimmanom 8y ago
  To some degree, both categories can also co-exist in the same person. Some people are self-motivated when crunching numbers on spreadsheets because they find it satisfying but would need to be dragged kicking and screaming to provide phone support -- and vice-versa. And there are probably some jobs that it's more common to be self-motivated for than others. Garbage collection? Data entry?
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Even development. I hate having to deal with project management software, detailed estimations, estimating points, etc. I know some of the drudgery of process is necessary, I just don't like it.
    - rjbwork 8y ago
      I don't mind the software. The estimates are asinine though.
  - svnsets 8y ago
    I'd say both exist in every person. I'm a software engineer with some design background. I got into programming because after trying to get into design, I found it wasn't my thing, but I've had many employers that wanted me to fill in the gaps the design team left open which I hated doing. It comes down to learning what motivates each employee individually. Companies spend so much money on surveillance and productivity monitoring, but don't spend much if anything on taking inventory of employee skills and strengths.

tetha 8y ago

I was thinking up a reply and now you're confirming it before I even write it. That's amazing. I tend to be critical during interviews and demanding during work... but I'm always ready to forward some trust towards the guys on my team. More often than not, I end up assuming "There's probably a good reason for that decision". And so far, it has paid off. If I trust people to make good decisions, people make even better decisions than I could ask for. Many, many people want to do a good job I've found. Over 20 - 30 people I've had on teams, there has been 1 guy who stretched that trust and he was a known troublemaker people put on my team as a test. As a result, I gave them a clean and solid case to fire that guy.

ravenstine 8y ago

Good for you. One of the most important lessons I've learned in life is knowing when to quit and having the gumption to leave unacceptable situations. The struggle of finding a new job, stressful it may be, is still a better feeling than being treated like a crap-piece. Life's too short for the assumed-guilty workplace, or to work for hack managers. I think a lot of people grow up being told to "never quit", so they don't prepare for the day when they should quit. Thus, they don't sock away f-u money and they take on too many responsibilities too early in life.

touristtam 8y ago
Not only this but you don't get keep a career in the same company automatically. Changing Job is the norm and to reflect this company are considering you as a resource: interchangeable with someone else having the same 'qualification'.

mikepurvis 8y ago

Harper's had a terrific piece on workplace monitoring a few years ago: https://harpers.org/archive/2015/03/the-spy-who-fired-me/?single=1 https://harpers.org/archive/2015/03/the-spy-who-fired-me/?si... One of the common themes is the unintended consequences. For example, UPS drivers who get scolded because the truck records that it was sometimes in motion without them wearing their seat belt. Regardless of the circumstances before the scolding (there are lots of situations where it would be reasonable to make such a judgment call, esp on private property like a parking lot), afterward they would simply clip the seatbelt empty and sit on top of it. Then the truck registers 100% seatbelt compliance and they are far less safe since they're never wearing it.

sp527 8y ago
It's weird to call these "unintended consequences." What we know about human behavior definitively indicates that having a sense of autonomy and control is essential to motivation/performance. It's also obvious that stress increases under the knowledge that someone is monitoring you. Hell even the ancient Greeks probably understood the perils of micromanagement... In the case of readily measurable output in blue-collar work, it seems obvious that a component of compensation should scale proportionate to productivity, so that you're rewarding high performers instead of implicitly penalizing everyone uniformly. And then you just fire (obvious) chronic underperformers, so that you still gain the advantages from there being a fear of repercussions.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
I think it's not so much unintended consequences as it is perverse incentives. It's the same as measuring a programmers output by Lines of Code, you're just going to get a heaping mass of code that could be done in 1/10th of the lines.
- dfsgh 8y ago
  agreed I worked as a consultant for a company that had exactly that problem. They based promotions based on lines of working code. Result: You would see huge bloobs of autogenerated code getting shipped that could have been done with about 5% of that code, and then later get discarded by security as a security risk. Even after my consulting(I was hired to fine our how mouch of there code is rly a security risk like there industry partners claim) they did not change there practice for 3 Years. Im surprised the Company even survived, but it did and after 3 Years a big restructering basicly fired all of IT management.

breakbread 8y ago

Disclosure: I'm what most would consider "white collar". Also , this is tangential to your post. One of my closest friends has been an automotive tech in the dealership world for the past 12 or so years and has mastertech certifications for 2 manufacturers. I never cease to be amazed at how fucked that industry/line of work can be, even for someone who is firmly at the top of their game. The incentive structure seems totally out of whack to me, such that it's no wonder that people assume the worst when they are faced with having to take their vehicle in for service.

Balgair 8y ago

It's funny, every time a post about hiring practices comes up, there are a million different and contrasting comments about how to hire. It's chaos. Then an article and a comment like this come along. Honestly, there are a lot of businesses out there that are just plain run by idiots and/or crazy people. It feels like the majority are, to me. So, next time you feel like the only sane person in the room/interview/review, you really should consider the possibility that you are correct, and not dismiss that thought out of hand.

svnsets 8y ago
next time you feel like the only sane person in the room/interview/review, you really should consider the possibility that you are correct I've been amazed by how often this is true, especially in the world of "startup CULTure". When I was naive and fresh out of college, I assumed that people who made it into management or into executive leadership did so because they knew what they were doing. That couldn't be farther from the case. There are so many companies run by people who are borderline insane, and so many people who will just blindly follow them through their nightmare. In contrast, there are great people and companies to work for if you put in the effort to find them. I will say that the whole tech recruitment industry has made that harder though as you have people who are financially incentivized to get you hired and tell you whatever bullshit you want to hear even if they know you will be miserable in that position and that 90% of that information is false.
- mmt 8y ago
  > In contrast, there are great people and companies to work for if you put in the effort to find them Is that true, though? That is, is merely putting the effort in enough? I'd expect there's an element of luck/timing, especially with startups, since funding is so limited.

hinkley 8y ago

I worked as a bike mechanic which is a small subset of all of the goo you guys get on your hands and I remember the process for getting my hands clean enough to go to the bathroom took almost a minute. I think washing your hands thoroughly before clocking out might have forced that issue, but it sounds more like the last straw for you. Clearly they killed the goose when they unbundled that service contract. It's too bad some of you didn't walk and find a different shop to offer the same deal.

magduf 8y ago
As an amateur mechanic (mostly cars), I've found wearing medical gloves (esp. the more expensive nitrile ones) helps a lot with keeping my hands clean. They tear open on sharp stuff of course, so you'll probably have to replace them several times, but it's better than not wearing anything, and gives you more tactile sensation than the thicker "mechanic's gloves".
- test1235 8y ago
  I've found nitrile to be pretty durable - they're meant for protecting against needles and scalpels and things, so I'm surprised they're tearing on you?
  - magduf 8y ago
    They are durable, very durable, compared to vinyl and latex. But they're not some kind of exotic metamaterial; eventually something will tear them open, and car internals can be rough environments. The much-thicker mechanics' gloves are more durable for a lot of that stuff, but they really limit you because of their thickness.

profalseidol 8y ago

> I cant understand why anyone would put up with a lot of this This has been ask throughout the history. And we have come a long way since we were duped that Kings, Queens and Popes have "Divine Authority". However, today, we have been duped again. And just like in the past, people didn't readily realize it. It will take effort and probably blood. Here's one good relatively recent example when people were finally fed up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair

sedachv 8y ago

> I cant understand why anyone would put up with a lot of this, but I can guess its probably some smug "white collar" manager who thinks production or revenue are down because people who didnt go to $college are inherently lazier than he is. That is literally exactly what happens, and how too many people in management think. David Noble's Forces of Production is about machine tool shops in the 1960s and 1970s, and is full of accounts just like yours (with details right down to management accusing workers of sabotage), with sources from both the worker and management sides.

dx034 8y ago
To me it more sounds like a manager who can't reach the goals. He was probably hired to improve profitability or at least keep it stable. If revenues fall he'll try to get them back up and this appears to be a quick fix. I don't think there's a management technique behind it, just cluelessness as to what would actually help.

xivzgrev 8y ago

clearly "management" lost sight of the big picture. Why would you charge for finding new leads? Let us inspect the car for free, and if we find something that needs repair, then hey we can take care of that (for a fee). Even better, the customer feels like they got something for free - someone is caring enough to look at my car for free, looking for dangerous shit that I'm not aware of. I suppose you could apply the value of the diagnostic to the eventual repair, but I'd feel trapped with that kind of arrangement and prefer not to enter it.